Emotional Affairs

[Blarg]

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When it comes to my relationship with a woman it is my best quality I was thinking about this today when I got an innocent email from a "cool" woman I met on my recent business trip to Europe. I was all excited to hear from her even though the relationship was innocent. Then I realized that I would NEVER be excited like that if I had received an email from a guy I met on the trip. If was obvious from what she wrote that there was a component of me being a man. There is just simply no denying that our respective sexes play an important role. There is a sexual component in all this innocence. There always is.

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It might be more flattering, depending on your outlook. No harm there. Calling that little extra ego boost sexual, though, seems to be pushing the sexual value pretty hard. Sure it is, but at such a minor level. Did you actually feel guilty or something about that?

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Do you get that same sexual charge from ugly or simply unattractive women? I don't. Which brings us back to the fact that they're just people. And if you can accept that undeniable fact, it follows that you have to allow that more attractive ones are just people too, and may have something to offer besides a lot of skin wrapped around a vagina.

I am not saying that it is the only thing. I am simply saying that it is an important element that cannot be ignored.

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It doesn't have to be played up either. In fact I think it would be pretty creepy if every interaction with the opposite sex was played up for its sexual "value."

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Besides, they may not want to offer you their vaginas anyway, and you may not ask, so why assume it's even an issue? Fear of rejection? Sour grapes? Poor impulse control?

That is a funny way of putting it but they may offer indeed, especially if you know how to spark attraction in a woman. Rejection isn't the problem. It is simply one possible outcome in the dance.

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I think if any of us had to never stop dancing, we'd shoot ourselves. And not every woman is attractive enough to ask to dance anyway. Most of us successfully control our antics daily, and our interchanges aren't that fraught with meaning. I think I'd go nuts if every time I interacted with a woman, there was a constant throbbing subtext, and moreover one that I was sure I couldn't control.

Maybe I should eat more red meat.

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Here is where I think you are dead wrong. There is way less choice than you think. We are driven by VERY powerful instincts. If a guy has strong game, he can get women to do all sorts of things she never thought she would do if she was thinking rationally. There is a whole industry devoted to how you keep a women from letting her get her rational defenses up. I highly recommend "the game" or to read DeAngelo to anyone who thinks that relationships are about rational choices.

Here is an example from my recent trip. The first day, I was sitting talking to this guy at an outdoor cafe. 2 tables over was this cute girl sitting with her boyfriend. I am great with my eyes and I locked eye contact with her and I didn't look away. Neither did she. I kept the contact up and she proceeded to eye-f (sorry, couldn't think of a more accurate phrase) me for the next 30 minutes every time her boyfriend turned away. I went inside to go to the bathroom and I turned around and she had followed me inside. I could have made out with her while her boyfriend sat outside. I needed to get back so I just dragged my fingers on her arm, which she obviously liked.

Now, in your world, this girl made some conscious choice to treat her boyfriend like crap and to engage with another man while he sat outside. But, I highly doubt it ever even crossed her mind. I sparked attraction and it was simply "on". I bet she didn't even realize that she was following me inside as there wouldn't have been time for her to think,"hmmmm, I like that guy over there but I am with my boyfriend. It would be wrong to go after that other guy. Gosh, I have an ethical dilemma. What to do. What to do...." Instead, her body just picked her up and took her inside. It was purely instinctual. DeAngelo talks at length about this. I wish I could remember his exact discussion but it was basically that you want to do things that bypass a woman's rational mind so that her emotional/instinctual mind takes over. That is where a woman will do things that she normally would not.


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I can't believe you're serious!

You're positing this woman as a sexual automaton. She didn't even know she was walking into the bathroom? Because she hadn't even had time to think about it?

That was one of the more bizarre passages I've read in a while, no offense. I'm staggered you could think anyone thinks or operates like that. How long do you think it takes people -- including this girl -- to think? You even note that she had half an hour to think about it. Half an hour wasn't enough? Then her body dragged her, I think we can say by now, completely brainless head, in along behind it? Was her head haplessly flapping backward on her neck during this stroll?

Seriously, there's no way we'll come close to agreement, because it's hard for me to even picture a person thinking the thoughts you just wrote. I'd take it as a total put-on, except I'm feeling gullible today, and your other posts haven't had that tone, or at quite that level. I just really don't know where to go from here.

[Cobretti]

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I can't believe you're serious!

You're positing this woman as a sexual automaton. She didn't even know she was walking into the bathroom? Because she hadn't even had time to think about it?

That was one of the more bizarre passages I've read in a while, no offense. I'm staggered you could think anyone thinks or operates like that. How long do you think it takes people -- including this girl -- to think? You even note that she had half an hour to think about it. Half an hour wasn't enough? Then her body dragged her, I think we can say by now, completely brainless head, in along behind it? Was her head haplessly flapping backward on her neck during this stroll?

Seriously, there's no way we'll come close to agreement, because it's hard for me to even picture a person thinking the thoughts you just wrote. I'd take it as a total put-on, except I'm feeling gullible today, and your other posts haven't had that tone, or at quite that level. I just really don't know where to go from here.

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I was serious although I knew you would likely disagree vehemently. People do act exactly like that and responses are indeed "automated". Do you really think a woman would rationally think about the situation and then make the decision she did? No way. Her rational mind would never let her. To believe that she rationally thought about it would mean that she thought, "Hey. I am with my boyfriend but there is a guy I have never met over there that is kinda cute. I think I will follow him inside to the bathroom so I can make out with him. I don't care if my boyfriend is here or not and I don't care if it is right or wrong. I am going for it." To believe a woman would have some sort of thought process like that or to believe she is thinking rationally is what is crazy.

Given your posts I think you might find "the game" a fascinating read, even if you disagree with a lot of what is in there. It was written by a NYT bestselling author and it was the a foundation of a recent VH1 show called the Pickup Artist.

[Blarg]

So if your girlfriend did this, you would not find her blameworthy, nor worry that it could happen again, and maybe worse? Since she basically exercised no volition anyway and therefore was not disloyal?

[katyseagull]

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Now, in your world, this girl made some conscious choice to treat her boyfriend like crap and to engage with another man while he sat outside. But, I highly doubt it ever even crossed her mind. I sparked attraction and it was simply "on".

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Maybe she was a bit drunk and feeling really amorous. That's the only thing I can think of. My rational mind can be bypassed by my emotional horny side if I'm drunk and then I do things I would never dream of doing sober. (this is why I don't do shots in public anymore [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Or maybe it had been a long time since a good looking guy had ogled her so openly and she was digging it and perhaps the guy she was with wasn't even her boyfriend so she followed you.

[Cobretti]

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Maybe she was a bit drunk and feeling really amorous. That's the only thing I can think of.

[/ QUOTE ]It is possible I suppose, but it was a weekday and it was 2:00pm.

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My rational mind can be bypassed by my emotional horny side if I'm drunk and then I do things I would never dream of doing sober. (this is why I don't do shots in public anymore )

[/ QUOTE ]Your inhibitions can be lowered by a man if he knows what he is doing. There are very specific acts a man can take to prevent your defenses from going up. As I said, there is a whole industry now devoted to this. I was shocked but I just saw a very detailed guide on how to escalate touch with a woman in such a way that she won't object. There are also approaches for getting her to continue if she objects. Men and women can be manipulated very easily if you can get them out of their rational mind.

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Or maybe it had been a long time since a good looking guy had ogled her so openly and she was digging it

[/ QUOTE ]I am not that good looking. But strong eye contact is a killer. There are not many things as powerful in a man's arsenal as eye contact and smiling [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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perhaps the guy she was with wasn't even her boyfriend so she followed you.

[/ QUOTE ]He definitely was, unless she wraps herself around guys that are not her boyfriend.

The exact story is really not that important. It was just to illustrate the point. I have much stronger stories but they are not proper for polite company. I could post the email a married woman just sent me. It was quite shocking and I am pretty sure that rationality had nothing to do with it. Of course, that relationship started off as a cool innocent thing too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

So, that is why I think these things are so dangerous. You simply can't expect rationality and free choice to save you.

[Mr. Philosophy]

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Now, in your world, this girl made some conscious choice to treat her boyfriend like crap and to engage with another man while he sat outside. But, I highly doubt it ever even crossed her mind. I sparked attraction and it was simply "on".

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Maybe she was a bit drunk and feeling really amorous. That's the only thing I can think of. My rational mind can be bypassed by my emotional horny side if I'm drunk and then I do things I would never dream of doing sober. (this is why I don't do shots in public anymore [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img])

Or maybe it had been a long time since a good looking guy had ogled her so openly and she was digging it and perhaps the guy she was with wasn't even her boyfriend so she followed you.

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Someone's rational mind can be bypassed even when sober. I think that was the point Cobretti was trying to make in his example. However in his example the girl was more of a whore than anything else.

I think a better example of loss of rational thought would be the emotional friend attempting a kiss. I just finished reading this thread and remember you saying Katy if an emotional friend kissed you that you would tell the person to back-off. However, if you were very attracted to this individual and the time came when he kissed you, can you say for certain you would push him away? I think most of us say we will, however saying something and doing something are two different things. I believe most people do not want to cheat on their spouse, but its situations like the one I outlined that causes individuals to cheat. Attraction can make our rational thought process disappear. Also, I am not saying everyone will cheat, but I am saying temptation is a powerful force that should never be underestimated.

[katyseagull]

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Your inhibitions can be lowered by a man if he knows what he is doing. There are very specific acts a man can take to prevent your defenses from going up. As I said, there is a whole industry now devoted to this. I was shocked but I just saw a very detailed guide on how to escalate touch with a woman in such a way that she won't object.

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I believe this. No doubt. I think guys would be smart to learn how to relax a woman by touch. (lol Cobretti. What sort of guides have you been spending your time reading? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

I'm not sure about trying your moves on a stranger in a cafe but it certainly wouldn't hurt for guys in relationships to know the tricks to calm a girl down. For example, I know if a guy rubs my neck gently that I am putty in his hands. He doesn't even have to be good looking either. He can be one ugly dude and I will tell him not to stop rubbing my neck. Touch is pretty powerful. That's why you shouldn't go around groping your friends. You do that and next thing you know you'll all be in bed together giving each other massages.

[katyseagull]

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However, if you were very attracted to this individual and the time came when he kissed you, can you say for certain you would push him away? I think most of us say we will, however saying something and doing something are two different things. I believe most people do not want to cheat on their spouse, but its situations like the one I outlined that causes individuals to cheat.

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You might have a point Mr.Philosophy. If I was very attracted to the guy and we were in a hotel in Vegas and he kissed me I would probably not push him away at all. It really depends on the setting and exactly what I want out of the relationship. If I wanted to pursue an affair I guess I wouldn't push him away.

But most likely I would freak out because I'm in a relationship and it would have crossed the line and there's guilt and everything. I'm actually pretty loyal. The difficulty would be if it was in a setting like a casino in Vegas and I was 1000 miles away from my guy and drinking some strong drinks then I would probably not be feeling such guilt. I probably wouldn't push him away as I would find it very enjoyable and I'd be excited. I see what you're driving at. Man just thinking about this in an honest way is making me feel guilty. And I haven't even done anything [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Cobretti]

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But most likely I would freak out because I'm in a relationship and it would have crossed the line and there's guilt and everything.

[/ QUOTE ]There is a term in the industry for this called ASD (anti-[censored]-defense). If you trip it in a woman you are done because she will freak out and stop out of guilt or out of worry about how she will be perceived. But, if you do it right a woman's ASD will not go up and everyone involved will enjoy your self immensely [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

For example, if you say to a girl (especially an attached girl), "hey, lets go up to my room and have sex" you are very likely going to trip the ASD and she will object even if she desperately wants to have sex with you. But, if you say, "Hey. You have to check out the view from my room" she will likely not object if she is interested and her ASD will not be tripped even if she kinda knows your intentions. You have given her plausible deniability for her own mind.

[Cobretti]

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So if your girlfriend did this, you would not find her blameworthy, nor worry that it could happen again, and maybe worse? Since she basically exercised no volition anyway and therefore was not disloyal?

[/ QUOTE ]Essentially correct. It doesn't mean that I can suppress the natural feelings that occur when a partner cheats. But, I rationally know that it happens, that it happens often, and that the person often has little say in the matter. I am also not an innocent boy so there are no stones for me to throw.