Just Got Patrik Antonius Answer To The Question I Asked Kenny Tran

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
"I've owned so many "top" live pros before with reverse tells it's really not that hard to do and not ridiculous to think that it would work on even the top pros. All live players put so much stock in their ability to read people and just assume some internet player can't reverse tell. I've tricked many a live player that was considered a nasty people-reader with some of the most simple reverse tells. They say something like "you look a bit nervous there" when you have the nuts and you subtly swallow/gulp. Make your hands shake while you're bluffing. There's tons of tricks and they work. I dont' know about PA or Kenny in particular but it's worked on tons of other "great live players" so I have no reason to doubt it would work on them also (or at least confuse them enough that they can't rely on your "tells" when you're playing against them)"

Ariel, I partially agree with you but for the most part live players are able to make an good assessment about the credibility of particular tells. High reliability tells relate to the adrenal response and are difficult or impossible to fake. One cannot pretend to have low adrenal levels in the body when they actually have high levels, and vice versa. Voice constriction, pupil dilation, high pulse rate, finger shaking, jaw/neck tightening, etc, are evidence of high adrenal levels (and usually a strong hand) and these things are very very difficult to fake. As a side note, some people just have a naturally muted adrenal response --- these people will find the transition to live play easier. People who have lively nerves will find the transition tough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm not trying to argue tells are entirely irrelevant i just wanted to note that people way overrate how much information live players can reliably get from tells and that live players aren't some gods that can just figure out what you have by looking at you: they're very fallible and their live edge isn't so supernatural that it overrides the lack of fundamentals you see in a lot of live players.

[KamiKatze]

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm trying to argue tells are entirely irrelevant i just didn't want to note that people way overrate how much information live players can reliably get from tells and add that live players are gods that can just figure out what you have by looking at you: they're never fallible and their live edge is so supernatural that it overrides the lack of fundamentals you see in a lot of internet players.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm trying to argue tells are entirely irrelevant i just didn't want to note that people way overrate how much information live players can reliably get from tells and add that live players are gods that can just figure out what you have by looking at you: they're never fallible and their live edge is so supernatural that it overrides the lack of fundamentals you see in a lot of internet players.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

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first off, you messed up by not changing irrelevant to relevant. second off, this might be the most asinine FYP I've seen in a long time.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm trying to argue tells are entirely irrelevant i just didn't want to note that people way overrate how much information live players can reliably get from tells and add that live players are gods that can just figure out what you have by looking at you: they're never fallible and their live edge is so supernatural that it overrides the lack of fundamentals you see in a lot of internet players.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

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[john voight]

maybe, online players grind b/c they dont have any money. and live HSNL players dont play anymore b/c they are set for life.

hell there is only 1 player i see every night sitting on FT and thats Urindanger, no one will even play him. and i have seen him on TV, so i would say he is more of a live player. u guys think phil hellmuth got to where he was by playing the easy guys? no. He played w/ the best and beat them. we see him own MTTs as well in WSOP time and time again.

We saw chris ferguson play n HSP last season. never played a cash game hand in his life, but w/ reads, and good fundamental knowledge, he owned thet abel in the few hands he played (something aba didnt do).

imo there is a simple fact here: the best players are all live b/c they play with the best. and now they dont need to play anymore, b/c they have won so much money.

gg

i'd take hellmuth and fergueson over any two online "poker players" any day.

[PLO8FaceKilla]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe, online players grind b/c they dont have any money. and live HSNL players dont play anymore b/c they are set for life.

hell there is only 1 player i see every night sitting on FT and thats Urindanger, no one will even play him. and i have seen him on TV, so i would say he is more of a live player. u guys think phil hellmuth got to where he was by playing the easy guys? no. He played w/ the best and beat them. we see him own MTTs as well in WSOP time and time again.

We saw chris ferguson play n HSP last season. never played a cash game hand in his life, but w/ reads, and good fundamental knowledge, he owned thet abel in the few hands he played (something aba didnt do).

imo there is a simple fact here: the best players are all live b/c they play with the best. and now they dont need to play anymore, b/c they have won so much money.

gg

i'd take hellmuth and fergueson over any two online "poker players" any day.

[/ QUOTE ]
excellent point.

Now back to mediocre online players saying "PA must have been joking".

[cts]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe, online players grind b/c they dont have any money. and live HSNL players dont play anymore b/c they are set for life.

hell there is only 1 player i see every night sitting on FT and thats Urindanger, no one will even play him. and i have seen him on TV, so i would say he is more of a live player. u guys think phil hellmuth got to where he was by playing the easy guys? no. He played w/ the best and beat them. we see him own MTTs as well in WSOP time and time again.

We saw chris ferguson play n HSP last season. never played a cash game hand in his life, but w/ reads, and good fundamental knowledge, he owned thet abel in the few hands he played (something aba didnt do).

imo there is a simple fact here: the best players are all live b/c they play with the best. and now they dont need to play anymore, b/c they have won so much money.

gg

i'd take hellmuth and fergueson over any two online "poker players" any day.

[/ QUOTE ]

just lmao at this entire post if you are being serious


edit: seriouslyt i hope i just got leveled

[Ricky_Bobby]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe, online players grind b/c they dont have any money. and live HSNL players dont play anymore b/c they are set for life.

hell there is only 1 player i see every night sitting on FT and thats Urindanger, no one will even play him. and i have seen him on TV, so i would say he is more of a live player. u guys think phil hellmuth got to where he was by playing the easy guys? no. He played w/ the best and beat them. we see him own MTTs as well in WSOP time and time again.

We saw chris ferguson play n HSP last season. never played a cash game hand in his life, but w/ reads, and good fundamental knowledge, he owned thet abel in the few hands he played (something aba didnt do).

imo there is a simple fact here: the best players are all live b/c they play with the best. and now they dont need to play anymore, b/c they have won so much money.

gg

i'd take hellmuth and fergueson over any two online "poker players" any day.

[/ QUOTE ]

just lmao at this entire post if you are being serious


edit: seriouslyt i hope i just got leveled

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry CTS, there's no shame in getting levelled by john voight.

[john voight]

yea, even the best fall victim to me

[Steve Giufre]

I cant believe this post got this much attention. Of course the live guys would beat the internet guys in live, deep nlhe. The online guys have little to no experience playing under those circumstances. There is also the issue of tilt control, since its a lot harder to get it back live since the hands dont come out nearly as fast, and a lot of internet guys cant deal with that.

Kenny's comment about interent players not being able to lay down a hand is probably true. I've played a lot of live poker and a lot of poker online, and no question I call down much lighter online. There is a reason for it, its not just random senseless calling. Its a lot easier for the guy on the other side of the computer to click all in on the river after he missed his draw than it is to look somebody in the face and move in on a bluff. The games have always played more aggresively with more showdowns because psychologically its just a different game and there is more bluffing going on which leads to more calling.

One thing is for sure, you hear a lot more horror stories of live pros getting busted apart online than you do internet guys going broke playing live. The games have always been much tougher online. A random online 15-30 limit game is probably tougher than most any live 100-200 game going right now. A game as small as 5-10 nl probably plays as tough as a 50-100 live game. I think the players tend to be better because the online guys play more hands, study harder, and are constantly talking poker with other great players, due to sitting in front of the computer all day.

Im not trying to take anything away from the best live players, I think the guys who are saying it would be easy for an online guy to come in and pick up the same tells as a top player are being ridiculous. Thats years of practice, and some of the best players, like Kenny, probably have a gift that 99.9% of other players could never catch up with no matter how hard they work. But I'm fairly sure the best online players have a better fundemental understanding of the game and its concepts, and are probably better on a level playing field.