LO8 - High vs Low - Agress or Caution?

[1meandog4u]

This is more a general question, which has probably been asked and answered a zillion times. I've played LO8 more than 20 years. In B&M casinos, low and med limit. Now I "relax" and play micro mostly LO8 1/2.

I have always put a premium on the obvious low drawing starting hands. However, I think there is a good possibility that I am playing way too cautiously when I have high hands. I see the maniacs pushing hi hands hard and winning huge pots, some scoops, while low hands are splitting up the remains.

I realize each hand, position, preflop play, etc determines a lot of the specific betting. I would just like to get some opinions, in general, if maybe high hands have been ignored too much with emphasis on the low (and obvious 1st choice).

When I flop a nut flush the first thought is not "Great!!", it's more like, "Oh sheeeet! Please don't pair the board." I think I'm playing WAY too defensively at that point, especially when two low players/draw hands start betting or raising.

Should I be pushing a pot like that harder? Or is defense until the river called for? Should a set be pushed harder until the board shows it can be beat? Top set I am talking about.

TIA

[Toro de Rojo]

As far as one-way hands go, high hands will pay a much better return in the long-run than low hands. In order of preference:

1. Two-way hand.
2. High only hand.
3. Low only hand.
4. All around garbage.

I think the biggest factor on why high hands get paid off is because when they hit, you can jam the pot, get people to chase their low hand, and the low often will not hit or they will get counterfeited. A la scoop!

As for betting when your high hand hits, it all depends on what you have. Top set or nut straight on the flop with no re-draws can be a very tenable position where you need to use caution. I would be aggressive and bet out in an unraised pot. Sometimes raise a bet, especially if a low is already out there. But if the board pairs or the flush gets there, you've got to know your opponents and be able to muck the hand if the situation calls for it (odds, reads, no low out there, etc.).

Flopping a nut flush, on the other hand, (even without a redraw) is pretty stout and worthy of getting as much in as possible. Sure, you're hoping the board doesn't pair, but I believe you are a something around a 70/30 favorite in that situation. You'll get cracked every once in awhile, but I like my odds over the long run in that situation.

In short, you flop a big high hand, be cautiously aggressive. The stronger the hand, obviously the more aggressive you can be.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]1meandog4u - That's about what I think too, but all the same I generally bet the nut flush (or probably any flopped flush).

What to do, how to best play, depends on your opponents and their perceptions of you. Play in such a way as to not give your opponents easy reads.

A flopped flush, straight, or set is not strong enough in Omaha-8 to slow play. The best option, always depending on your opponents, probably is usually to directly bet it. At the same time, you somehow want to deceive your opponents, but not obviously (because that is a tell). Hard to tell you exactly how to accomplish that deception.

And you want to keep your antennae fully extended, trying to put each opponent on cards. It's not easy (at least for me) to always correctly put my opponents on cards, but I always try.

As to playing high cards or low cards, it depends on what you are dealt. If you're dealt good high cards, then play them. If you're dealt poor high cards, then tend to fold. It's much the same as with low, except that it's much harder to tell the good from the poor for high.

Buzz

[1meandog4u]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Please don't pair the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

...Hard to tell you exactly how to accomplish that deception....

And you want to keep your antennae fully extended, trying to put each opponent on cards. It's not easy (at least for me) to always correctly put my opponents on cards, but I always try.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like most good players are in the same quandry as I am, and handle it the way I do. Extreme caution with less than A high straights, and with sets, till the board pairs.

I feel I have a good to very good read on player's cards, and have been told that by some good players. Most of that was learned at higher levels and B&M casinos.

I still believe there are a lot of "online tells" IF you attribute them individually and not to a group as a whole. I have many player notes such as "stall=he's got the goods", while others might say, "stall=weak". Guess I'm dealing with high hands the same as you are suggesting.

I might step up my aggression more on nut flushes. Don't want to get into the math of it, but I think you're close with me being a 70/30 favorite with nut flush, as far as the board pairing.

The math experts can/and will correct me I'm sure. My simple mind says there are 9 cards that will pair the flop, three for each card. I have two of those cards if I have a set, leaving 7 cards out of 52-4(my hand)-3(the flop)=44. 44-7=34 roughly 5 to 1 and there are two draws, so 2½ to 1. But in most cases I will be getting 2-1 with two players, but get half the pot, so net is even money.

If I'm getting even money on a 2½-1 prop, guess I need to push harder. And that assumes that if the board pairs I will lose. If no one remaining has a set, I pick up those additional pots.

Thanks for getting my own mind juices going.... that's until the math experts blow my rough theories out the window.

[Toro de Rojo]

So many variables affect the percentages. For instance, your opponent could have two or three pair, in which case there will be less outs. But on the high side of things, you will usually be somewhere between 63-68% if you have the nut flush on the river.

And your equity will be affected by the low cards out there and whether your opponent has a low hand (even an emergency low). If there is only one low card, then you will scoop over half the time. If there are two cards, I believe you still scoop ~30% of the time.

These are heads up numbers, by the way.

[TMTTR]

When you make top set or nut flush on the flop, you need to be aggressive from the start -- if the board is low and the other two are jamming, you should join in. At LO8 1/2, I would not woory about deception until my opponent has proven some level of understanding of the game. You also need to consider betting/raising your strong high draws (nut flush draw, wrap draw on a rainbow board, etc.) when you have position. On the turn, you can decide whether to semi-bluff or take the free card off.

Also, because the high hand can scoop, I think you should consider limping in (particularly at a loose passive 1/2 table) with almost any four broadway cards (and always when they include a suited Ace). These hands are far easier to get away from when the flop is bad or even mediocre.

[1meandog4u]

Thanks for the input. Your ideas are along the lines with what I am comfortable with, keeping in mind position and knowledgable players... not a lot of them at LO8 1/2, but there are a few.

I just prefer that level.. higher and it starts dropping fishes and gaining sharks. Lower, and I'm blinded by the "kelp" there's so many fishes, 8 to see the flop and so on.

I have sort of learned one thing at these lower levels from what I used to play live... don't raise unless you are attempting to build a bigger pot, players rarely drop out. You might gain a "free card", but they are there to the river. That's the approach I take at this level O8.

Again, thanks for the input.

[sfgiants]

[ QUOTE ]
The math experts can/and will correct me I'm sure. My simple mind says there are 9 cards that will pair the flop, three for each card. I have two of those cards if I have a set, leaving 7 cards out of 52-4(my hand)-3(the flop)=44. 44-7=34 roughly 5 to 1 and there are two draws, so 2½ to 1. But in most cases I will be getting 2-1 with two players, but get half the pot, so net is even money.

[/ QUOTE ]

No math expert here either, but if my thinking is correct, then after the turn there will be 4 "pairable" cards. So you'd have 7 outs after the flop and then 10 outs after the turn. Someone please correct if I'm wrong.

[TxRedMan]

this is limit poker. dont play scared.

push any edge, no matter how small, as hard as you can in limit poker.