$5 -45plyr sng- Should I check the flop?

[Firegoat777]

Hi everyone,


My read of the UTG player was that they were capable of bullying with their stack, but was generally sensible about their bets. The most active player at the table had been the chip leader who had stolen a lot of pots regularly. I had played very tight as short stack, but had recently doubled up twice.

What i want to know is how would you play the flop here?

PokerStars (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](11085 in chips) posts big blind 1200.
. SB (10025 in chips) small blind 600.

UTG (16188 in chips).
MP (20432 in chips).
Button (9770 in chips).
Everyone antes $75
<font color="#CC3333">UTG (poster) raises raises 2400 to 3600</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls.



Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets bets 2400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises All in </font>, Hero calls 5010 (All-In).

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

What do you put UTG on?

cheers,

[taipan168]

If your read is that UTG knows how to use their stack, then you should shove back in his face preflop rather than calling. Who knows, he might even fold! Medium pocket pairs are difficult hands to play postflop with a 10x BB stack, particularly when you are OOP postflop.

As played, I would not check this flop with two clubs on board. I would just shove it right there for about a pot-sized bet, it looks like a stop 'n' go bluff which may well get called.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]

What do you put UTG on?

[/ QUOTE ]

A set of 9s.


Otherwise, drugs.

[Firegoat777]

I don't really like the pre-flop shove with pocket 8's, especially as a call. I generally prefer to see the flop with pairs as high as queens because they just don't seem to hold up very often for me on Pokerstars.
I agree that middle pairs are hard to play out of position, so that qualifies a shove post-flop. I was hoping for the check raise all in.

cheers Fg7

[Firegoat777]

The pair of nines seemed the logical play there Drzen, but I figured I had to call because the range generally favored me.
Imagine my surprise when my opponent turned over J,10 os. I thought that this hand would be mucked pre-flop, so I allowed the potential free card because I was sure my opponent would bet. That is why I think the check may not be best late in a tourney. I really should make them pay something for the flush and straight draws.

[TwistedEcho]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really like the pre-flop shove with pocket 8's, especially as a call. I generally prefer to see the flop with pairs as high as queens because they just don't seem to hold up very often for me on Pokerstars.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible thinking.

If the player is playing aggressively, then you can just shove preflop. He's probably not folding but who cares, you beat his range.

If he isn't so aggressive, then this is a decent spot for a stop and go - call preflop and push ANY flop (that doesn't give u a set). Even if the flop comes AKQ you shove.

since you flopped your set, checking the flop is reallly standard, no reason to push. I might even check the turn again, since its likely he will take a stab at it if you check twice. If you bet hes just folding here a ton, and you only really need to protect vs gutshots (if he has a flushdraw, i expect all the money to go in on the flop).

FWIW BBV might be better for posting if you only posted this because he had JTo and you lost.

[Firegoat777]

Thanks for the reply Twistedecho.
[ QUOTE ]

If the player is playing aggressively, then you can just shove preflop. He's probably not folding but who cares, you beat his range.


[/ QUOTE ]
Am I really beating his range as a push to a raise with a pair of eights? Especially when the bet has to travel through 5 players. Even J,10 os as played by villan, is just a coin-flip race.

[ QUOTE ]

If he isn't so aggressive, then this is a decent spot for a stop and go - call preflop and push ANY flop (that doesn't give u a set). Even if the flop comes AKQ you shove.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would never shove here with an A,K,Q flop. I might with 1 or 2 overcards (especially if desperate) but not with 3 and the straight. Why is shoving good here?

[ QUOTE ]

since you flopped your set, checking the flop is reallly standard, no reason to push. I might even check the turn again, since its likely he will take a stab at it if you check twice. If you bet hes just folding here a ton, and you only really need to protect vs gutshots (if he has a flushdraw, i expect all the money to go in on the flop).



[/ QUOTE ] Checking seems right. What about a small weak bet?

cheers

[DeuceSeven]

I play it like twisted. I shove it back in his face pf cause 88 &gt; villains range. If you called pf then I like a stopngo unless you flop a monster. If villain has a wide range, no need to bet the flop, he'll just fold since he probably whiffed. So either shove it with an M ~5 pf or stopngo. I would never call pf with the intention of ever folding the flop.

Here's how I would play:
pf: shove
flop: check/call
turn: I have to bet, the pots big enough and if villain didn't bet the flop he might not bet the turn. Get it in as played.

[TwistedEcho]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I really beating his range as a push to a raise with a pair of eights? Especially when the bet has to travel through 5 players. Even J,10 os as played by villan, is just a coin-flip race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands like JTo will often fold when you shove it in.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.001% 45.54% 00.46% 1080793668 10929690.00 { 22+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A9o+, A7o, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 1: 53.999% 53.54% 00.46% 1270600296 10929690.00 { 88 }

We are ahead of that range, he might fold some of the hands, and with added overlay of the blinds/antes you can't really be folding here. IF hes really tight i guess you can - im not a fan of folding 88 here though.

[ QUOTE ]
I would never shove here with an A,K,Q flop. I might with 1 or 2 overcards (especially if desperate) but not with 3 and the straight. Why is shoving good here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea of a stop and go is you push the flop instead of preflop, since you don't expect him to fold preflop. You CANNOT be calling preflop here with 88 with the plan to ever fold, its just too many chips. If you were going to check fold bad flops, this is a leak and stop doing it. Either you shove preflop because you are ahead of his range/have some fold equity OR you fold preflop since he is a nit and crushes your range (which is going to be really rare) OR you call preflop and shove any flop since you don't have any fold equity preflop so whats the harm.

Lets say he has TT, if the flop comes AKQ he probably folds, same if he has JJ, same if he has Q8s maybe. It also works the other way, when the flop comes T54 you fold out AK stopping him seeing all 5 cards. If you do decide to stop and go, you should be pushing ALL flops, or checking to induce him to bet to trap. You just can't coldcall this preflop and plan to fold, its too many chips.

[Firegoat777]

Great post TwistedEcho, lots to think about there.