Video Blackjack in PA

[chucksim]

So PA casinos have started offering video blackjack games. 5 spots play against a dealer's hand. On the face, the one I have been to offers semi-decent rules:

BJ pays 3:2
Split any 2
Surrender
6 decks "shuffled after every round" (according to the backglass)

All in all, on the surface, the best game in the slots-only casino, and they're mildly entertaining. I was pleasantly surprised to see the 3:2 BJ. Now the twist:

I've been reading some articles about them, and all make statements indicating that they are "slot machines" and have been "retrofit" to meet the definition of a slot. So, each player has no impact on any other player (supposedly). An article states:

"The board’s gaming lab worked with manufacturer Shufflemaster for months to assure that the machines met the definition of a slot machine, Harbach said. In that scenario, each player competes individually against the virtual dealer, and one individual’s play doesn’t affect any other player’s odds or outcome."

That can be read to figure that even though the guy hit a 14 against a 5 and "took my 10", he really didn't, as I have my own set of cards, but otherwise, it's basically heads up blackjack against the dealer.

But, does my play (hitting, standing, doubling) have any impact, or has the decision already been made whether I win or lose, no matter what happens?

For example, if I've been picked to win my hand, and I happen to get a 20 and hit it, is it a GUARANTEE that I will get an A?

Conversely, if I have a 20 but have been picked to lose, naturally the dealer will draw to 21. If these are really "slot machines", I'd have to assume that is how it works, but that does get a little goofy with the other players playing against the dealer's one (same) hand.

If the latter is the case, they can offer every great rule on the planet, and nothing from my play is going to change my hand's outcome (much like pull-tab games in other states).

Anyone have any good knowledge on how these would be set up, and how, in a state like PA they would be different than in NV, where the machines MUST mimic the game as if played with real cards?


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[soulvamp]

I don't know about these, but video poker machines -- which are considered slot machines -- deal the cards as soon as you hit the deal button or max your bet. It deals the first five cards, and the next five cards are in a queue. The queued cards don't change with your draw action. If you discard one card, you get the next card in the queue, etc. So essentially, it works just like a real deck where draw cards come off the top of the deck, no adjustment according to your play.

I assume the bj machines would work the same way. It's not predetermined whether you win or lose a hand, but the cards are queued up before you take your first action.

Do these machines have the same dealer rules as a live table -- dealer must hit 16, stand on 17?

[Bishop22]

I don't believe LV has any multiplayer BJ machines but if they did this is how they would differ: LV machines would shuffle a shoe of cards and the cards would be dealt sequentially so player 1's action would influence the next player's card, the last player's action would influence the dealer's outcomes, only outcomes change, odds are constant. One player playing badly doesn't decrease everyone's odds, just there own. In PA, each player is dealt a queue of at least 11 cards, they draw from their own queue and the next player draws from their own queue, the dealer from their queue so neither odds nor outcomes are influenced by the other players as is required under the definition of slot machine in PA.

[chucksim]

[ QUOTE ]
Do these machines have the same dealer rules as a live table -- dealer must hit 16, stand on 17?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the casino I was at, dealer hit soft 17. That is obviously an option that can be changed at any time.

[chucksim]

Thanks. I buy your explanation, Bishop. Each person is basically playing "heads up" against the dealer's hand, and everyone has their own queue of cards.

(With that setup, I'm certainly happy that the rube next to me who was splitting queens against a 9 when I stopped in to check the machines out has no impact on me.)

Two things raised my eyebrows here, though, that made me worry it is more like a "pull tab".

One was the rules; namely the 3/2 payout for BJ and the late surrender. Considering the onerous tax rate in PA, everything in the place has about the worst rules you can imagine (6/5 JoB poker and the like). I was shocked they were offering 3/2 on BJ. Unless the state is mandating that payout, I couldn't imagine the casino not taking the opportunity to fleece the public with an even money BJ.

Second was this statement from the casino's PR man:

[ QUOTE ]

"Considering it’s a $5 game the hold is in the ballpark of what a $5 slot machine will be,” Wise said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this could just be ignorance by the spokeman or a misquote, but obviously if they're using these rules straight up, I calculate the house hold at less than 1%.

I'll bet my house their $5 slots hold more than 1% (unfortunately they don't publish stats broken out by denomination).

Again, I think Bishop is right and the game may actually be as good as it appears on the surface. Granted it isn't beatable, but it is by far the best game in the house to kill time at if you stop in with friends or family who want to play the slots. It's certainly cheaper for me than buying their $4 beers.

[sevencard2003]

i find it very very hard to believe its really paying the correct amount on BJ and dealing the cards randomly and fairly as in wendover NV. there even if u split 2 aces and get a face card it treats it as a BJ and u get paid 3 to 2 just like on BJ. ive been told the BJ machines in wendover NV return over 100% and i used to play there alot before i moved outta the area. am wondering if any players in the wendover NV area know if those machines exist still? they also had some of them in reno at the atlantis and cal neva. certianly aint no bj machines in vegas paying 100% though.

[Bishop22]

I think you may be underestimating the public's ability to play as sub-optimally as possible. Also they probably figured they would get many more hands per hour with lower costs than real BJ so it was reasonable to offer a lower HA. They aren't exactly a monopoly either with AC and Delpark a stones throw away so competition may have played a part. They could presumably advertise 'best odds in the Delaware Valley' after the newness wears off and they need a gimick.

[chucksim]

The place I'm talking about isn't in the Del Val, so competitive advantage can't be it (Pocono Downs in WB). They've got a captive audience right now, as the closest open racino is Monticello in NY. When the slots casino in the Poconos opens, you're still talking about 45 mins.

One thing it is doing is opening the market to bigger players. Surprisingly (to me) there were several players there (who obviously play BJ in AC) betting between $50 and the $200 max per hand. Otherwise, biggest game in the house is a couple $25 slot machines.

Point taken about the sub-optimal play. There's plenty of that going on there. I give them credit for offering something reasonable for the player who pays attention. The rest of the place is far from "player friendly" with VP.

I figured that they would fleece the unsuspecting public without a second thought, because most patrons wouldn't even notice that the rules were worse than they should be.

In any case, as long as the rules stay as is, I won't mind as much when that's where people want to go for a night out.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
One player playing badly doesn't decrease everyone's odds, just there own.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't decrease anyone's odds, just their own.

[Bishop22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One player playing badly doesn't decrease everyone's odds, just there own.

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't decrease anyone's odds, just their own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you not like the way I phrased it? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]