I DESERVE RESPECT

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a difference between doing it once and doing it in perpetuity. I'm sorry you don't see that.

Good luck.

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henry,

i've read your posts here and really don't think anything shoe has done is ethically bad or inherently morally wrong or anywhere nearly related to "kiting" (as defined by wikipedia and investopedia..this was the first time i heard that word).

you are (and i agree w/ skindog) defending credit card companies that prey on people to their advantage. if they make an offer that somebody takes advantage of to make more money then i don't see the problem.

shoe would be on the line for the $ if he lost it in the stock market, if he doesn't, then he deservedly made money and just has to pay the requisite taxes and the pricipal (assuming no interest thing worked out) back to the credit card company.

it seems as if you have a personal grudge against doing this but that is another issue i guess...

from what i've seen you could call shoe any of the following:

1) egotistical
2) naive
3) ambitious

but i don't think you can call him unethical as it relates to his credit card 0% interest cash loan scheme.

anyways, those are just my thoughts and are based on the little information ive gathered and seen posted here.

Barron

[Henry17]

[ QUOTE ]
i've read your posts here and really don't think anything shoe has done is ethically bad or inherently morally wrong or anywhere nearly related to "kiting" (as defined by wikipedia and investopedia..this was the first time i heard that word).

[/ QUOTE ]

It actually is identical to kiting.

With kiting you deposit a cheque and withdrawal the money via cash-back. When that cheque is presented you issue a new cheque to the bank the original cheque was drawn on. The end result is that you end up with an interest free loan and as long as you keep the shell game going you haven't done anything illegal. His scheme is exactly the same just in slow motion.

[ QUOTE ]
it seems as if you have a personal grudge against doing this but that is another issue i guess...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I don't like sketchy behaviour. It is an awful trait.

I'd be less judgemental if he was doing this because of temporary financial need. If someone did something like this out of desperation it is more acceptable then doing it out of egotism, naivety and delusion. He can do this but he can do this and at the same time demand respect.

[Shoe]

[ QUOTE ]
With kiting you deposit a cheque and withdrawal the money via cash-back. When that cheque is presented you issue a new cheque to the bank the original cheque was drawn on. The end result is that you end up with an interest free loan and as long as you keep the shell game going you haven't done anything illegal. His scheme is exactly the same just in slow motion.


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YOU ARE THE DELUSIONAL ONE. If i was kiting, the loans i got would have not actually existed. If I was kiting, everyone who owns a credit card would be guilty of kiting.

I don't understand how you can't comprehend this. I am taking out a loan. Are all other car loans, mortgages, and credit card purchases, and cash advances kiting in your book as well?

You need to stop posting like you know anything about this subject when in fact you are clueless.

[Henry17]

When you kite you are taking out a loan as well. Cash-back is a loan from the bank to you for the period it takes for the cheque to present. True it is only a loan for 1-3 days but it is still a loan.

[Shoe]

[ QUOTE ]
When you kite you are taking out a loan as well. Cash-back is a loan from the bank to you for the period it takes for the cheque to present. True it is only a loan for 1-3 days but it is still a loan.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is not, kiting is deceiving the bank by writing out checks to yourself back and forth between multiple accounts, when in reality, that money does not actually exist. You are just writing bad checks and using the few days it takes a check to clear to make the bank think you have money that does not actually exist. This is fraudelent and wrong.

I am taking out real money loans here, that are completely legal and legitimate. The money exists today and it is being transferred to me, completely legal. I'm not trying to create money out of thin air here, it actually exists and companies are more than happy to transfer it to me.

Do you not see the difference? I don't know how else to explain this to you so you will understand.

[Henry17]

The difference is imaginary. Regardless, I'll never get you to understand so best of luck. I really do hope it works out for you (although the smart money is on it not).

You are the one asking for respect I'm just trying to point out why you'll never get it. Instead of listening and learning you just jump up and down and claim it is different. You are 28 and have to play a shell game to come up with chump change. Do you think that puts you in a position to speak authoritatively on anything financial?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've read your posts here and really don't think anything shoe has done is ethically bad or inherently morally wrong or anywhere nearly related to "kiting" (as defined by wikipedia and investopedia..this was the first time i heard that word).

[/ QUOTE ]

It actually is identical to kiting.

With kiting you deposit a cheque and withdrawal the money via cash-back. When that cheque is presented you issue a new cheque to the bank the original cheque was drawn on. The end result is that you end up with an interest free loan and as long as you keep the shell game going you haven't done anything illegal. His scheme is exactly the same just in slow motion.

[/ QUOTE ]

it seems here that the bank would verify the funds and you'd immediately get caught and it is very unethical. you are misrepresenting funds that you don't have in order to cover previously drawn upon funds that were taken out via presentation of a check for which funds couldn't back it. this seems like it is a misrepresentation to the bank and in fact, very illegal. you have written a check for which you don't have funds to back it. that is the very definition of illegal/fraud.

here, there is a legal and perfectly legitimate loan being extended to shoe.

you didn't deal with this statement i made in the post above either:

[ QUOTE ]
shoe would be on the line for the $ if he lost it in the stock market, if he doesn't, then he deservedly made money and just has to pay the requisite taxes and the pricipal (assuming no interest thing worked out) back to the credit card company.

[/ QUOTE ]

since he is on the line for the money and has absolutely no intention fo defrauding the creditor, how can this be anything like kiting?

thanks,
Barron

[Henry17]

The cashback is also a legitimate loan. I can go deposit a cheque and take out funds via cashback. The cashback is a legitimate 0% interest loan for 2-3 days. As long as the cheque clears then there is nothing wrong.

When the cheque presents it will clear because I will have already deposited a second cheque. The original cashback loan has now been paid and I now have a new cashback loan with Bank B. That is a legitimate loan so long as the second cheque clears which it will since by the time it presents a 3rd cheque from bank C will be deposited at Bank B. Repeat with a cheque from bank A into bank C. Then B to A again etc.

This is exactly the same as doing it with credit card. At any given time one loan is legitimate and when it comes due it is paid for with a new legitimate loan. He borrows the money from Card A then pays it with card B. When card B comes due he pays it with card C.

The difference is that with the cheques you'll cycle though a complete rotation in a week. With credit cards it will take a year to a year and a half. In both cases if the bank or credit card notices they will stop you from doing it. The problem is with the credit cards it is harder for them to pick up on it then the bank since it is much slower. The mechanics of the scam though is identical.

[Shoe]

The cashback is also a legitimate loan. I can go deposit a cheque and take out funds via cashback. The cashback is a legitimate 0% interest loan for 2-3 days. As long as the cheque clears then there is nothing wrong. [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not. The funds never actually existed in the first place. You are scamming the bank into giving you cashback. That is the illegal part.

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When the cheque presents it will clear because I will have already deposited a second cheque.

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Again you are depositing another bad check that does not have any actual, real, funds behind it. that is the illegal part.

None of my checks are like that. They are all legitimate loans. All the money is real. In your example, you are trying to create money out of thin air. That is not happening here, not even close.

If the money didn't exist, the checks from these credit card companies would bounce. They clear without me having to try to cover for it with some fake check.

The main difference that you don't seem to grasp is that kiting is fraud from the start -- you never had a valid check to begin with. What i'm doing has only one check -- a valid one. It is a loan that I am obligated to pay back.

Anyways, you will obviously never realize the difference here, so I'm done talking about it. This is not how I wanted to spend my birthday.

[jumbojacks]

I sort of stopped reading when Henry17 kept accusing Shoe that what he is doing is kiting. It is not kiting and I don't know why you continue to insist that it is. By using a check, you're claiming that you have money in your account to back the paper. A credit card is just a loan being given to Shoe. This tactic of shifting debt using balance transfers can't be done forever. For the most part, you're trying to remove as much current information about all the cards and debt you hold off your credit reports by doing things like opening multiple accounts from many different banks in one day to generate tons of LOC. Eventually you won't be issue more cards to cover the size of your existing debt and will be forced to start paying down whatever you have accumulated.

I also assumed that Shoe started this thread as somewhat of a joke. I don't understand why you continue to push this issue since you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, there was a HUGE thread somewhere on Fatwallet that described how to automate the process of making your payments and maximizing the amount of credit you can receive to do what Shoe suggested, but instead they recommended using a high yield savings account for a risk free gain. Most people don't do it because this can be a huge hassle for them and if you happen to forget one payment, you're [censored].