When is it good tocheck-raise river?

mongidig · #1 07-24-2007, 02:24 PM

This is a post that was inspired by a thread I read in the high stakes area by Kevin J.

When is it appropriate and how often do you guys check-raise the river with a good hand that you have been leading with the whole way?

This is something that I never do unless I think my opponent is on a draw and didn't get there and even then when he bets I would just call. Since I never do this it obviously makes life easier for my opponent since if I check he knows I don't have a great hand.

I think it would be helpful if we could construct some scenarios where this would be a good play.

Hand 1) I raise UTG with AA and get called only by LP(He is a decent player but a little too loose preflop. He cold calls raises too much and could have suited connectors, any pocket pair, any broadway etc. Post flop he plays his made hands very aggressively on the flop but will slow down on the turn unless he has a monster. He typically doesn't play his draws strongly unless it is a very big draw. He views me as TAG and knows that I will bet the flop and turn with overcards or other draws. He is not the type to bluff raise. He won't miss a value bet if checked to on river with a made hand like top pair or second pair.

The flop: 9d8s3c

I bet, he calls

The turn: 9d8s3c2h

I bet, he calls

The river: 10d9cs3c2hQh

Since I think his most likely holding was a draw like JQ or KQ would a check-raise work here.

If you guys have other examples that would be great. I will post other hands if I think of them.

rafiki · #2 07-24-2007, 03:31 PM

The most obvious ones are counterfeit situations against aggro players who hate missing value bets. Soooo

KK

board: QJ53

river: 3

Seems like an obvious spot for a good check raise that always gets paid off by QJ

blindside · #3 07-24-2007, 03:42 PM

i don't like it in hand 1... he could be calling down real light, looking to showdown cheaply... something like 78/89, A8/9 or 44 even... so i think you're much better off just betting it... so yeah that Q could have a piece of his range but i think it's more likely, it'll scare him into betting it...

but whatever board where his hand is fairly transparent, i would go for it... it usually works on dry boards where he's not going to raise but will bet when checked to... like if he has something like A8 on a A22 flop and you have AK..

mongidig · #4 07-24-2007, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like it in hand 1... he could be calling down real light, looking to showdown cheaply... something like 78/89, A8/9 or 44 even... so i think you're much better off just betting it... so yeah that Q could have a piece of his range but i think it's more likely, it'll scare him into betting it...

but whatever board where his hand is fairly transparent, i would go for it... it usually works on dry boards where he's not going to raise but will bet when checked to... like if he has something like A8 on a A22 flop and you have AK..

[/ QUOTE ]

With the A8 example I would often check-raise the turn after leading the flop. Would you sometimes wait until the river to make this play?

blindside · #5 07-24-2007, 04:02 PM

i think it's too easy for most folks to lay down to a turn c/r there.. not to say it happens a lot.. but i think it happens enough to just bet it... a lot of folks won't expect the river c/r and think it's some weird line and won't fold for 1 bet in a decent pot and will almost always call... but in either situation, you're going to have know your opponent well enough so it might not matter if it's the turn or river...

whiffing in either situation really sucks...

ProfessorBen · #6 07-24-2007, 04:59 PM

Charles Barkley is 19/12/1.90 after 78 hands.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (7 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results:
Hero has 6s Qs (three of a kind, sixes).
UTG+1 has Ac Qh (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB.

Captain R · #7 07-24-2007, 06:08 PM

OK, here's one:

I open-raise AK in MP, only LP calls. He has a decent hand.

Flop is 7-2-2. I bet, he thinks for a long time and calls. He clearly only has overcards.

Turn is A. I check, because he'll fold if he doesn't have an A, and if he does have an A he has very few outs. He bets, I call planning to check-raise river. This way if he has nothing or is bluffing I might get 1 more BB out of him.

River is K. I check, he bets, I raise. The K was actually a really unfortunate card for me.

The DaveR · #8 07-24-2007, 09:15 PM

So far the only real good example is from blindside.

AragornX151 · #9 07-24-2007, 09:17 PM

Ben's isn't awful, but I really prefer betting because you are often raised, allowing you to 3-bet. Much preferable to check-raising IMO.

I don't do this very often. All factors have to feel right, and honestly, I don't think it's very frequently correct in mid-limit poker. At Kevin J's level, players will make thin value bets on the river when checked to. Here, most live opponents will be content to check down too much on the river to make it worth the risk of not collecting any bets on the river.

bakku · #10 07-24-2007, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Charles Barkley is 19/12/1.90 after 78 hands.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (7 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results:
Hero has 6s Qs (three of a kind, sixes).
UTG+1 has Ac Qh (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy bet/3-bet