6max showdown monkey folds an overpair

[sweetjazz]

Clearing the Stars bonus, I decided I would play some 5/10 full ring, having not played full ring in several months. I think this is probably standard, but just thought I would check in.

Villain in this hand is 24/13/1.2. He hasn't seen many showdowns so far and hasn't won many of those he's seen in this session (~100 hands).

In the hand in question, a terrible loose passive fish limps UTG, I raise UTG+2 with 9s 9d. Folded to the villain in the BB who calls, as does the terrible fish.

Flop is 5d 8s 4c. BB bets, UTG calls, I raise, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn is 3h. Checked to me, I bet, BB raises, UTG folds, I fold.

Anything interesting here or 100% standard?

[Stu Pidasso]

I call the raise and call a bet on the river.

Stu

[BigBadBabar]

don't fold and then it's standard.

[Niediam]

I call down too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Villian could easilly here be raising for value with a hand that you beat like A8.

Even when you are behind you will often have odds to continue. For example, if villian has 54 then you have 8 outs (two 9s, three 8s, three 3s) to improve on the river.

[FatedEquity]

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don't fold and then it's standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

[sweetjazz]

Seriously? Most of the players at my tables were weak-tight postflop and this player seemed to fit that bill as well. What kind of hand range are you guys putting him on?

Would you still call down if the action had instead went:
Flop -- He bets, UTG calls, I call.
Turn -- He bets, UTG calls, I raise, he 3bets, UTG folds

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously? Most of the players at my tables were weak-tight postflop and this player seemed to fit that bill as well. What kind of hand range are you guys putting him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the calldown is as obvious as some people are making it (BB could well have a bigger overpair than we do, as well as a flopped set or even straight), but I do think the calldown is, well, called for. He's going to have just top pair pretty often, maybe along with a gutshot. It's also possible that he's holding two pair with something like 54s, which we have odds to draw against.

I call down unless I know that this opponent is weak/tight, or at least very passive.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously? Most of the players at my tables were weak-tight postflop and this player seemed to fit that bill as well. What kind of hand range are you guys putting him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is a little unclear. It sounds like you only have ~100 hands on information on this guy. Thats really not enough stats to get a good read on how tricky/aggressive this guy is - maybe he hasn't had the chance for you to see him get tricky with anyone yet. If he hasn't, this hand is a perfect opportunity. The story changes if you had 5000 hands on him.

I don't think you're giving much up by folding here. In all likely hood you're beat by a set, or two pair...maybe even an overpair to your overpair. This hand, however, has a smell to it; its smells like someone is making a play at you. Because the hand is close and becuase it smells, this is a good hand to call for meta-game considerations.

Stu

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously? Most of the players at my tables were weak-tight postflop and this player seemed to fit that bill as well. What kind of hand range are you guys putting him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is a little unclear. It sounds like you only have ~100 hands on information on this guy. Thats really not enough stats to get a good read on how tricky/aggressive this guy is - maybe he hasn't had the chance for you to see him get tricky with anyone yet. If he hasn't, this hand is a perfect opportunity. The story changes if you had 5000 hands on him.

I don't think you're giving much up by folding here. In all likely hood you're beat by a set, or two pair...maybe even an overpair to your overpair. This hand, however, has a smell to it; its smells like someone is making a play at you. Because the hand is close and becuase it smells, this is a good hand to call for meta-game considerations.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, this is a great post. I think it was a pretty close decision, and afterwards I had some inclination that a calldown might have been in order, especially with the doofus mcdoofus UTG hanging around early in the pot, thereby making it 2 BB bigger. That said:

(1) I think it's less likely that BB makes a move with UTG in the hand, as UTG is bad enough to call two with a wide range here (and probably the BB knows/suspects this).

(2) While I do have a nice redraw against his two pair hands, the texture of the board is such that there are relatively few for me to be up against. He could have 54s, 85s, 43s, 53s. But most of his better hands are overpairs and sets, giving me only a 2 out redraw.

The key to me is how likely our villain is to have a decent showdownable hand like A8 or 86 that he plays this way. At the time, I felt this was very unlikely based on how the tables were playing and the fact that this player seemed to typify the weak-tight nature of the games. That said, my read on him as an individual was very limited and my read on the Stars 5/10 game was also pretty weak as this was my first time playing it in a long while.

I am not going to lose sleep over this fold, but I do take the argument that I am getting a good enough price to calldown seriously.

FWIW, I saw a similar line as villain's in an early hand where I had Kc Kx on a Jc 7c 2c flop, and a different (but similarly styled) villain had flopped a small flush with Tc 8c. (I never improved, but obviously called this one down.) That's not to say that I was up against 76 in the 99 hand, but I've made a note that the bet/call flop, check/raise turn line seems like a popular one from loosish weakish players with monsters.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously? Most of the players at my tables were weak-tight postflop and this player seemed to fit that bill as well. What kind of hand range are you guys putting him on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is a little unclear. It sounds like you only have ~100 hands on information on this guy. Thats really not enough stats to get a good read on how tricky/aggressive this guy is - maybe he hasn't had the chance for you to see him get tricky with anyone yet. If he hasn't, this hand is a perfect opportunity. The story changes if you had 5000 hands on him.

I don't think you're giving much up by folding here. In all likely hood you're beat by a set, or two pair...maybe even an overpair to your overpair. This hand, however, has a smell to it; its smells like someone is making a play at you. Because the hand is close and becuase it smells, this is a good hand to call for meta-game considerations.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, this is a great post.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. it lays out my thoughts pretty well, also. in today's environment when it's close, i opt to get to showdown versus relative unknowns. the fold is probably close to neutral in this spot, but for the sake of future hands i'm calling down.