IQ versus effort

disjunction · #1 02-22-2007, 09:54 AM

Found this link in Paul Phillip's blog. I make this point over and over again in the Sklansky-type IQ threads, that I think IQ is overrated and effort underrated here. Or at least discussing IQ is counterproductive. I'm tired of making this point so I'll probably say it less often.

But this article makes it clear:

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

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Dweck sent four female research assistants into New York fifth-grade classrooms. The researchers would take a single child out of the classroom for a nonverbal IQ test consisting of a series of puzzles—puzzles easy enough that all the children would do fairly well. Once the child finished the test, the researchers told each student his score, then gave him a single line of praise. Randomly divided into groups, some were praised for their intelligence. They were told, “You must be smart at this.” Other students were praised for their effort: “You must have worked really hard.”

Why just a single line of praise? “We wanted to see how sensitive children were,” Dweck explained. “We had a hunch that one line might be enough to see an effect.”

Then the students were given a choice of test for the second round. One choice was a test that would be more difficult than the first, but the researchers told the kids that they’d learn a lot from attempting the puzzles. The other choice, Dweck’s team explained, was an easy test, just like the first. Of those praised for their effort, 90 percent chose the harder set of puzzles. Of those praised for their intelligence, a majority chose the easy test. The “smart” kids took the cop-out.

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xenthebrain · #2 02-22-2007, 09:59 AM

Well, I don't see the point here.

The kids who were told they are intelligent and fail the harder test, have their intelligent image to lose.
The "working hard"-kids, still can fail at the harder test, but they would have made an effort still.

They've got nothing to lose by taking the harder test.

tagtastic · #3 02-22-2007, 10:03 AM

Probably alot of truth to this study. I was told I was smart from a young age and grew up to be an incredibly lazy guy who does as little as possible to get what he wants. Sometimes this minimal amount of effort can actually be alot, depending on what I want (some things just take alot of work to achieve).

The problem is that I don't really want anything now. More likely, I don't know what I really want, let alone how to get it.

Tell me I'm smart.

disjunction · #4 02-22-2007, 10:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't see the point here.

The kids who were told they are intelligent and fail the harder test, have their intelligent image to lose.
The "working hard"-kids, still can fail at the harder test, but they would have made an effort still.

They've got nothing to lose by taking the harder test.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, exactly. But that's the point. See tagtastic's post, and limon's comments when a couple of these threads came up (I can think anacardo had one and also JaredL had one in El Diablo Forum). The only way you are going to accomplish or learn anything is by exposing yourself to harder challenges.

When kids are raised to think they are so smart, they may start giving up on challenging tasks, because they can only lose.

bwana devil · #5 02-22-2007, 10:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't see the point here.

The kids who were told they are intelligent and fail the harder test, have their intelligent image to lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe the children were told these lines independent of their actual scores.

disjunction · #6 02-22-2007, 10:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't see the point here.

The kids who were told they are intelligent and fail the harder test, have their intelligent image to lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe, the children were told these lines independent of their actual scores.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

imitation · #7 02-22-2007, 10:28 AM

When I was young I was pretty smart, but in the example given I would definitely take the hard test, I thought smart kids usually wanted to be the smartest for bragging rights. I especially tried hard at exams in school which were not subject based but those broad based university exams (we have in Australia i'm not sure about USA). Simply because I knew it was the leveling exam so if I did well I could rub it in the nose of people who were smarter in Subjects we could study for which I did not do. Maybe this is more caught up in Ego than IQ.

disjunction · #8 02-22-2007, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When I was young I was pretty smart, but in the example given I would definitely take the hard test, I thought smart kids usually wanted to be the smartest for bragging rights. I especially tried hard at exams in school which were not subject based but those broad based university exams (we have in Australia i'm not sure about USA). Simply because I knew it was the leveling exam so if I did well I could rub it in the nose of people who were smarter in Subjects we could study for which I did not do. Maybe this is more caught up in Ego than IQ.

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Yes, but there is also this quote:

"Dweck’s research on overpraised kids strongly suggests that image maintenance becomes their primary concern—they are more competitive and more interested in tearing others down. A raft of very alarming studies illustrate this."

You probably tried hard on tests where you were pretty likely to prove your point. But what about a more real-world type setting, say, you start on a project, and midway through you're not sure if it will work? Do you continue on, or do you quit midway through, confident that either the project was flawed or else, if you had prioritized it, you know you would have succeeded.

DrewDevil · #9 02-22-2007, 11:22 AM

Very interesting article.

My parents, especially my mom, always told me (and everybody else) how smart I was, and I never had much drive to be an exceptional student. Maybe those two things were not unrelated.

xenthebrain · #10 02-22-2007, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When kids are raised to think they are so smart, they may start giving up on challenging tasks, because they can only lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the majority jsut gives up. But many people who are smart and were also always told that they are smart, try to accomplish good results by doing less than others, but with the same or nearly the same results with way less effort.

That's how they try to proof that they are smart, because with studying all day long, almost everyone could get e.g. good grades.