Karma or being a douche?

[saxman007]

Sitting at 5/10 full kill Omaha hi/lo at Motor City, Detroit.
Not a bad game, though when I sat down the average age dropped by about 20 years on the table. Youngest was at least 50, most were older.
I've learned that unfortunately when I sit down in an Omaha or O8b often the table has to help the dealers at least occasionally. I can understand this with the game only getting spread once a week. Anyways, villain in the 3 seat has been berating every dealer whenever a mistake happens. I am in a split pot with him and notice he doesn’t ship a toke. I decide to watch him, and not once did he ever tip dealer or cocktail waitress. He has thrown his cards more than once and has little patience with any of us. It's getting late (most have been playing at least 8 hours -- but the average age is at least 50!) I'm in a hand 3 ways and make the wheel on the turn. Villain is button and I'm UTG+1 (in seat 6). SB bets, I raise, villain raises, SB folds, I call. River brings a flush card and also a straight to 6 (sorry don't remember the board). I check, figuring I just got quartered, villain bets I call. As I call I ask him, "Did you quarter me?" I flip my cards and have a somewhat hard time seeing his cards. I sit quietly, notice he does make the 6 high straight, somebody starts to ask a question at his end of the table and he says "I've got the wheel we split." Seat 8 notices this, but decides to stay silent -- dealer splits the pot and next hand proceeds. Seat 8 says I'm lucky, I nod and say "Karma." Now, all night long we have been trying to help the dealers decide the pot. Am I a douche, maybe. I asked the guy if I was quartered when I flipped my hand, somebody near him, may have been the dealer, starts to try to read the hand and he was loud and says "we split." Plus he's been yelling that he can't see the cards at our side of the table.
So, am I going to be cursed by the god's, or did this guy maybe sow what he reaps? Mind you, I have called myself being quartered and also noticed a baby flush that killed my straight that both dealer and player missed.
99% of the time I call it, but I was just tired of this guys antics. Honestly, how would you all play this one?

[Jekyll]

To be honest, as a rule I don't say anything unless it's in my favor. If he doesn't see it, that's his problem, not mine. It certainly doesn't hurt when they're an [censored]. But does this make me a douche? I don't think so. Part of the game is protecting your hand, but not others', and I think the same applies to reading hands. My two cents.

[jedi]

In general, I'll help the dealer if I see it. After all, cards speak and if I missed something, I'd like someone else to speak up. Of course, since you were playing against a douche, I might "forget" to read the hand this time around.

[Cornell Fiji]

I think that you know that you are wrong in what you did and you are using the fact that he was cheep and did not tip the dealers to justify your actions.

Does this make you a bad person? No. But were you unethical and dishonorable. Clearly yes.

If you lived your life by Kantian maxims then this decission would have been easy for you and you would have brought it to the dealers attention that you got quartered.

[bav]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that you know that you are wrong in what you did and you are using the fact that he was cheep and did not tip the dealers to justify your actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgive you, my son. To be absolved, say three mea culpas and give away all of your ill-gotten booty to the dealers and waitresses the douche didn't toke.

[sledghammer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you lived your life by Kantian maxims then this decission would have been easy for you and you would have brought it to the dealers attention that you got quartered.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could very well be wrong about the kantian maxim youre talking about, but I think you are wrong. If everyone behaved in the same way as op, that is, let the dealer call the hand, and screw your opponent if he or the dealer doesn't see it, poker would not degenerate into chaos. Especially if such behavior was reserved for percieved [censored].

Are you talking about the kantian maxim that judges an act based on the consequences if everyone acted similarly? (ex. If everyone ran red lights, much destruction would ensue, therefore it is wrong for me to run red lights)

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you lived your life by Kantian maxims then this decission would have been easy for you and you would have brought it to the dealers attention that you got quartered.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could very well be wrong about the kantian maxim youre talking about, but I think you are wrong. If everyone behaved in the same way as op, that is, let the dealer call the hand, and screw your opponent if he or the dealer doesn't see it, poker would not degenerate into chaos. Especially if such behavior was reserved for percieved [censored].

Are you talking about the kantian maxim that judges an act based on the consequences if everyone acted similarly? (ex. If everyone ran red lights, much destruction would ensue, therefore it is wrong for me to run red lights)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure... lets drail this post :-)

Note: I am not an authority on this subject. If someone would like to correct me or say that my interpretation is correct please do so.

The Kantian maxim that I was implying was "It is wrong to take what is not rightfully yours." This could easily translate into an universal truth and it is likely one that Kant would endorse. It certaintly would fit in this situation and would indicate that the OP should have spoke up and corrected the dealer.

Your point was good though, I am not sure if my rationale proves you wrong but here is what I came up with: There are several problems with having a maxim of "Let the dealer call the hands"
1) The OP has previously stated that dealers are not capable at O8 and they actually need players to help them out.
2) The OP said that he previously has helped the dealers therefore this could not be a maxim of his
3) I think that 1/2 are sufficient arguments against your maxim however a world could be imagined in which O/8 dealers were competant and that correcting them was wrong. In such a world if everyone (and you are correct in applying the maxim to everyone) corrected the dealers unnecessary chaos would ensue. I believe that this maxim falls apart for the following reason:
a. There is no moral judgement in helping the dealers read boards. Maxims must be paired with their motivation and since the dealers in this hypothetical society are able to properly call out hands then what is your motivation for calling out the hands?
i. If your motivation in this hypothetical society is to harass the dealers then the maxim would be "it is wrong to harass people" and that would probably hold true.


The MTT I am in just started so I have to stop thinking about Kant... please correct me if there are any logic errors in my above statement.

[chardog]

I love to snowboard and was living in Aspen four winters ago when I first started playing online poker. One morning while ordering my coffee at !Ink Coffee I happened to look down and see a $100 bill on the floor (only in Aspen right?). I started to bend over to pick it up but suddenly stopped myself.. it was April 1st. I took a closer look to see if there was fishing line attached, it was fake, etc.... Nope, it was real. I picked it up and gave it to the girl at the counter without much thought remarking "Someone dropped this". She said that she was pretty sure which customer would have dropped it and thanked me for being an honest person. My "read" on her was that she was going to return the money to that person. Even if she kept it for herself, I would have had no problem with it... she was working and I was going snowboarding, she "deserved" it more than me.

About a week later I was leaving my apartment to go snowboarding at Snowmass and happened upon a $20 bill on the sidewalk. No one was around and feeling that I had built up some karma from the previous $100 bill episode I pocketed it. Weird things started to happen to me for the next few days, nothing really memorable.. it was weird in the sense that the small battles in life that normally break even all started going against me (just missing the RFTA bus, stubbing my toe, forgetting to charge my iPod etc, etc). It all culminated with a really bad fall in the halfpipe that sent me to the emergency room. Luckily, nothing broken or internally bleeding just a badly bruised hip and leg.

While limping back to my apartment that night I yanked a $20 bill out of my money clip and dropped it on the sidewalk where I had found the previous one. I'm normally not a superstitious person and have no strong beliefs about karma and what not but on that day I think I did. Anywho... I've never told anyone about it until now... this thread just happened to make me think more about it more.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Sitting at 5/10 full kill Omaha hi/lo at Motor City, Detroit.
Not a bad game, though when I sat down the average age dropped by about 20 years on the table. Youngest was at least 50, most were older.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 52 and the rare times I sit in an Omaha/8 game in Los Angeles I drop the average age by 20 years too!

Haven't read the other responses, but this guy sounds like such an a-hole I think 2 "Hail Mary's" and 3 "Our Father's" will get you back to even (if you are a Catholic, otherwise you're already even). [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick