Waiting for turn to protect

[scott111]

3/6 B&M

2 hours in, table started playing very loose for past half hour, 7 - 9 to see the flop. Across from me are some lag types who have been bumping it with pretty weak hands so the pots are big. One them (UTG+1) really thinks he can sense weakness and reliably bets after a street is checked through. The rest are passive ATMs.

Hero is ATo in MP3

Preflop:
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 SB)
UTG checks, <font color="red"> UTG+1 bets </font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls..

It could just be frustration sinking in, but I know a raise does not protect. I think that UTG+1 will bet the turn, So my line is check here, if a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] less than T falls or if I hit I raise him, else reconsider when the action gets to me. This way I exploit a bigger edge on the turn with less risk. Does p160 of SSHE apply here, or am I just wimping out?

[earlytimes1]

scott, I would raise the flop not necessarily to protect, but for value.
waiting to the turn to protect is tough b/c 2 passive players are between you and the flop bettor, and when he leads the turn they will usually call again, so you will only be able to face 1 player with 2 BBs by raising the turn. the passives in between will always call 1 more.

also, ATo is really marginal at this sort of table in a multiway limped pot. A9o is a fold. but if I was playing I would rather raise pre.

[Joe Tall]

ATo is much of a hand without the button in a multiway pot. Your reverse implied odds are too high, consider folding in MP preflop.

You played the flop great, your T is vulnerable to overcards and the diamong draw. The flop bet is in EP and you are closing the action, just call and wait until the turn.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
scott, I would raise the flop not necessarily to protect, but for value.

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waiting to the turn to protect is tough b/c 2 passive players are between you and the flop bettor, and when he leads the turn they will usually call again, so you will only be able to face 1 player with 2 BBs by raising the turn. the passives in between will always call 1 more.

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Wait a minute, read these statements again. They contradict.

[ QUOTE ]
ATo is really marginal at this sort of table in a multiway limped pot. A9o is a fold. but if I was playing I would rather raise pre.

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A hand like ATo that is very tough to play multiway, we dont need to bloat the pot before the flop as it will impound errors post flop.

[jesse8888]

What the heck does it means to "impound errors" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ?

If this is a 10 handed table, hero is in the CO pf. If it's 9 handed, he's on the button. Either way, he is decidedly not in MP, and either way, I'm raising pf. Bloat that pot, you have position and the best ace.

As played, I call the flop. If I raised pf and the pot is twice as big, I raise for value as even a turn raise is not going to protect anything.

[One Outer]

Not raising the flop here makes me throw up in the back of my mouth a little bit. Do it for value.

However, I see your point about protection. But how are you going to do it on the turn either? Just make them put in more money and play pokers on the turn.

[jesse8888]

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The flop bet is in EP and you are closing the action, just call and wait until the turn.

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He's not even close to closing the action. At least both blinds and UTG checked. I am revising my original statement; hit the raise button for value.

[slavic]

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The flop bet is in EP and you are closing the action, just call and wait until the turn.

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He's not even close to closing the action. At least both blinds and UTG checked. I am revising my original statement; hit the raise button for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit I'm a little conflicted on this one. We have an equity edge right now and the likely hood that 6 may see the turn for 2 bets with maybe one other player in an ev positive situation(on bets going in). So at least 4 people making mistakes in the order of 2/3 of a BB a piece. On the turn I think you could make 3 people pay a double bet with significantly less equity. That would be a larger mistake for fewer opponents, plus you have the option to pass if the the board becomes nasty.

Here is the thing though, this wouldn't fit the style of game I play at 3/6. A turn raise almost always means terror and doom at my local cardroom so you will normally do better to play straight forward. Oh and I almost forgot, I like callers.

[Joe Tall]

I blame my reply on the OP:

[ QUOTE ]

2 hours in, table started playing very loose for past half hour, 7 - 9 to see the flop. Across from me are some lag types who have been bumping it with pretty weak hands so the pots are big. One them (UTG+1) really thinks he can sense weakness and reliably bets after a street is checked through. The rest are passive ATMs.

Hero is ATo in MP3

Preflop:
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks

Flop: T 7 5 (5 SB)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets , MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls..

It could just be frustration sinking in, but I know a raise does not protect. I think that UTG+1 will bet the turn, So my line is check here, if a non less than T falls or if I hit I raise him, else reconsider when the action gets to me. This way I exploit a bigger edge on the turn with less risk. Does p160 of SSHE apply here, or am I just wimping out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I read fast and took the above, now-bolded, info when I replied. Had UTG (or the SB/BB obv) bet, calling the flop is the play. With UTG+1 betting, raising to knock out the 3 behind is the play.

Raising preflop is a spew, folks. Slow down here w/ATo.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

I have to agree with the general sentiment that a preflop raise with ATo is often spewy. In general, raising with offsuit hands in a way that builds a multi-way pot is bad. I might be able to see a case for raising if your opponents who limped ahead of you are unlikely to limp with AK/AQ/AJ, but even then, I think it's kind of thin.

Waiting until the turn to protect your hand is difficult because of several reasons. 1) There are way too many scare cards that can come and make it difficult to charge the field two bets. 2) As others have noted, the callers are most likely to be sandwiched between you and the likely aggressor.

One thing that the OP didn't mention is the suit of the ace. I would even say that the proper play might be to raise the flop if he has the backdoor nut flush draw and to just call if he doesn't because ATo with the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] has fewer turn cards that make you puke.

There are a lot of factors that go into your decision here. What hands would UTG+1 bet here? (This hand can get really annoying to play if UTG+1 is a tighter-than-average player who would limp with AA preflop like that.) What hands would MP1 and MP2 just call with and which hands would they raise with? What are the players behind you calling for one vs two bets on the flop?

Overall, I don't think that this is a hand where you are looking to build a big pot. You haven't flopped something that practically guarantees you'll go to showdown. If you play well post-flop, there are cards that can come combined with scary betting patterns where you might end up folding the turn.