two value bets

[brettbrettr]

both villans here have taggish numbers and seem decent. All comments appreciated..

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#FF0000">UTG raises</font>, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>



Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 5 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>

[milesdyson]

hand 1 is a bluff trying to fold little pocket pairs.

hand 2 is harder to figure out because his range is so big. but when you bet f+t+r on that board you can be pretty sure you're not being called by worse than AK high.

so i don't like either one.

[jstill]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't like either one.

[/ QUOTE ]

usually if ur going to be betting A hi UI on the river it ll be OOP to be correct or the action wont have gone ck call ck call so far unless the board is really low or something like xxy and u know ur opponent would have played more aggressively with a pair so his range is hugely weighted towards UI high cards (so this can't really be true if u 3bet preflop becuz people play pairs more passively, just as an aside). On these boards both bets are hugely -EV in my opinion and after this action both bets are hugely -EV (close to a whole bet probably, really the only value in the river bet of either is in hand 1 to fold out red PPs that picked up a bdfd but may give u credit when u fire the 3rd shell thinking u wouldnt with A hi since it has showdown value, so its not a value bet anyways as miles said).

[yourface]

these are not value bets

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
usually if ur going to be betting A hi UI on the river it ll be OOP to be correct or the action wont have gone ck call ck call so far unless the board is really low or something like xxy and u know ur opponent would have played more aggressively with a pair so his range is hugely weighted towards UI high cards (so this can't really be true if u 3bet preflop becuz people play pairs more passively, just as an aside).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, I know all this. I know my hand has showdown value. In both cases I also thought it was good. Maybe 1 is closer to a value-bluff than a value bet. But 2 was fully for value.

[maniacut]

the river bet in hand 2 is NOT a value bet. he's calling with any pair and folding any draw, and maybe he calls with AK and AT-A6, too...but it's not 50% of his range.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
so i don't like either one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both are pretty terrible IMO and certainly not vb's as already mentioned.

I would consider betting hand 1 but only if I have seen villain take the c/c c/c c/f line pretty often. So I need a pretty good read to do that.

hand 2 is just plain terrible IMO.

[Amaryllis]

How about checking behind on the turn in hand 1?

We'd avoid being semibluff-c/red, we'd induce a bluff from missed draws if we're ahead, we'd get a free card if we're behind (we can't fold to a c/r with our draw)

[TheWunderkind]

[ QUOTE ]

We'd avoid being semibluff-c/red, we'd induce a bluff from missed draws if we're ahead, we'd get a free card if we're behind (we can't fold to a c/r with our draw)

[/ QUOTE ]

getting c/r on this Turn isnt terrible at all since we have so many outs , if he would have AK with out a d and if we wouldnt have a gutter then id propably chk this Turn behind

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
usually if ur going to be betting A hi UI on the river it ll be OOP to be correct or the action wont have gone ck call ck call so far unless the board is really low or something like xxy and u know ur opponent would have played more aggressively with a pair so his range is hugely weighted towards UI high cards (so this can't really be true if u 3bet preflop becuz people play pairs more passively, just as an aside).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, I know all this. I know my hand has showdown value. In both cases I also thought it was good. Maybe 1 is closer to a value-bluff than a value bet. But 2 was fully for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
honestly what worse hands call? i think hand 1 is a lot better but not as a value bet. it's a bluff that might work. hand 2 is just an awful bluff. he called your UTG raise in the BB so worse ace high hands rarely get past the turn, so if his range is (not ace high) + (other hands), how can you bet for value? there's just nothing for him to call.