Good spot for a second barrel?

[Sherman]

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I think this is a bad spot for a second barrel. Your bet on the flop showed alot of strength, you were representing a K or something like A7. The fact that he called as opposed to raising you IMO means that he is not scared of very many turn cards. He could have called with something like KQs, KJs, QJs, AJs, 77, or 22 or a poorly played 88-TT. Either way I think you have very little FE on the turn and only two cards to come on the river which could possibly help you if you are not already drawing dead. If he checks river I would check behind as well, I don't think you can steal this pot.

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Seriously folks. I am going to float the [censored] out of all of you and lead or check/raise every turn. Our villain in this hand is aggressive. Aggressive players understand c-bets and aggressive play. They also float...which may seem passive but aggressive players know it is an aggressive play.

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For example, my question to you is say you are villian, what hands are you floating here? And I don't know whether you can or not, but describe a general situation where floating is a good play.

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A couple of things.

1) This is an ok flop to float. Our PF raising range include lots of hands like 55+,A7s+,A8o+. If we are TAG (and OP says we are) that means we are firing at this flop with almost every one of those hands. Most TAGs check the turn after they miss and their c-bet fails. So as for what hands I might choose to float against a TAG on this flop? Just about ATC b/c I can be sure the TAG checks the turn if he missed and I can fire away on the river. This flop is unconnected and if the TAG doesn't have the K, he is very likely to give up on every hand except AA (including QQ if he is a true TAG).

2) I'm not saying villain made a good play if he floated here. Just that it is very possible that an aggressive villain will float here. There are also plenty of meta-game considerations for firing a 2nd barrel. Because if you constantly raise PF and c-bet the flop then shut down on the turn unless you have something, you are very exploitable. We have to fire a turn c-bet sometimes, and I think this is a reasonable spot to do so for the reasons mentioned above. We really don't have any other way to win this pot IMO.

[Sherman]

Wow. I just read Foucault's (Andrew Brokos') article in the internet magizine this month. Linked Here . Even though our opponent in this spot is not a calling station, he is loose, and the example Andrew uses is almost exactly the same as this hand. I'd recommend people check it out.

Sherman

[Coz]

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I think this is a bad spot for a second barrel. Your bet on the flop showed alot of strength, you were representing a K or something like A7. The fact that he called as opposed to raising you IMO means that he is not scared of very many turn cards. He could have called with something like KQs, KJs, QJs, AJs, 77, or 22 or a poorly played 88-TT. Either way I think you have very little FE on the turn and only two cards to come on the river which could possibly help you if you are not already drawing dead. If he checks river I would check behind as well, I don't think you can steal this pot.

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Seriously folks. I am going to float the [censored] out of all of you and lead or check/raise every turn. Our villain in this hand is aggressive. Aggressive players understand c-bets and aggressive play. They also float...which may seem passive but aggressive players know it is an aggressive play.

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For example, my question to you is say you are villian, what hands are you floating here? And I don't know whether you can or not, but describe a general situation where floating is a good play.

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A couple of things.

1) This is an ok flop to float. Our PF raising range include lots of hands like 55+,A7s+,A8o+. If we are TAG (and OP says we are) that means we are firing at this flop with almost every one of those hands. Most TAGs check the turn after they miss and their c-bet fails. So as for what hands I might choose to float against a TAG on this flop? Just about ATC b/c I can be sure the TAG checks the turn if he missed and I can fire away on the river. This flop is unconnected and if the TAG doesn't have the K, he is very likely to give up on every hand except AA (including QQ if he is a true TAG).

2) I'm not saying villain made a good play if he floated here. Just that it is very possible that an aggressive villain will float here. There are also plenty of meta-game considerations for firing a 2nd barrel. Because if you constantly raise PF and c-bet the flop then shut down on the turn unless you have something, you are very exploitable. We have to fire a turn c-bet sometimes, and I think this is a reasonable spot to do so for the reasons mentioned above. We really don't have any other way to win this pot IMO.

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Thank you.

[kurtkatt]

i understand your reasons and all for why we 2barrel empty sometimes etc, but this isnt a very good spot is it?

he probably isnt folding much that he called flop with and 3barreling 4.4s players are kinda suicidal....

check behind and bet when checked to, also call if he bets and the flush misses seems pretty good here, no?

[Sherman]

Look, I'm not saying we should routinely second barrel players in 4.40s. But I am saying that if we are looking for a spot to do it, this is that spot.

We have a loose but aggressive player who could easily be floating us because of our TAG image (read Focault's magazine article). Our hand has little showdown value (meaning we won't call a bet from villain on the river U/I, so inducing a river bluff isn't good) and we have little chance to improve with a free card. The turn card could be scary to many hands the villain is floating (or calling thinking he is ahead with). This is a good spot to fire a 2nd barrel bluff. If we fail, we can easily dump it b/c our hand has little value otherwise.

I just really can't explain it any better than that.

[kurtkatt]

ok, im not very much against a second barrel here, but it goes kinda both ways.

actually i think A high has ok showdown value here, most midpairs would hate the K high flop and fold quite often. so i think draws and ks+ are a bigger part of his range than midpairs. also the turn spot feels like a kinda good spot to play for potcontrol (our bet on turn more or less represent kq+ or air) with a lot of our made hands meaning we will checkbehind here alot with hands that beat midpair (altho this will probably not work here, c behind turn and betting river and getting a fold outta midpairs..)

for the showdown stuff, i wouldnt say that i agrre that we give up this pot when we check turn. i think with a c/c on flop villains range might be something like 50/50 with hands we beat hands/we are beaten by. thinking we call a bet on river when he bets into us about 50% of the time the flush dont hit (also if he checks when flush hit we can bet with some frequency over 0%)


i dont know really what my point with this is, just maybe that altho i think both 2barreling and c/behind are both viable options with pro/cons in them. maybe against someone who will call us more when we check behind on turn (like u except this villain to do maybe??) this is one of the times it might be better to go for one more.


also, Foucaults example may be similar in board texture, but pf and pressure are not.