Ron Paul - clear on abortion

[The Truth]

I am pro choice, but after watching Ron Paul really elaborate on his stance here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRJKbEs5HgE

I don't mind having this guy make the decisions. He certainly knows more about the issue than I do. I don't think I really understood the issue.

[The Truth]

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The only quandry is if the foetus is a human or not which really is a matter for doctors. After that it becomes very clear cut.

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No, it does not become very clear cut. Even if it is a human, it is still the woman's quandary whether it allows the human to stay in her body or whether she wants to get it out of there, even if it may lead the to human dying.
Just like it is your moral quandary whether you want to give food to someone who will die if he does not eat.

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...but my point is it's a moral (not as the term has been hijacked by the religious crazies) issue not a governmental issue

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Exactly!

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But if we can take the baby out and it would live, do we have a right to kill it and then take it out? or should we take it out alive and put it up for adoption or something like this?

[tomdemaine]

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If a foetus is a human being (I don't know) then it absolutely has the right live at the expense of it's mothers interests. Having sex without protection or with inadequate protection is signing a contract saying I will support any child that occurs as a result.

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I think this is a pretty dangerous argument for a libertarian to make, since it sounds suspiciously similar to the bs 'tacit consent' arguments for the legitimacy of statism.

In any case, one problem I have with these tacit consent arguments--in pro-life and pro-state forms--is that they seem to ignore the inalienability of a person's rights, meaning that contracts can be terminated in much the same way that they are begun. (For example, you agree to work for me for one year, and sign a contract stating such, I have no right to *force* you to continue to work for me if you change your mind after three months. You may owe me some type of compensation, contract depending, but you have every right to leave since signing a contract doesn't enslave you).
So even if I agreed that having sex was 'tacit consent' to bearing a child (which I don't), I still don't see that admission as a sufficient argument against abortion.

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Tacit consent for the state is BS because you're taking no positive action action and being in their territory is unavoidable. A contract doesn't enslave where there is the opportunity of just compensation. You can never compensate for taking someones life (if it is that). I see it as an argument of personal responsibility. I don't have to save you from a burning building but if I shout "it's ok I'll save him" and everyone else who could have saved you goes away I have a responsibility to try and save you. My positive action has caused a positive obligation.

[nietzreznor]

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A contract doesn't enslave where there is the opportunity of just compensation.

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No, a contract never enslaves, period. This is what it means for rights to be *inalienable*.

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You can never compensate for taking someones life (if it is that).

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True, but a) abortion isn't unique in cases of people dying and it being difficult to find good compensation, and b) compensation is only required if rights are violated, and since the fetus has no right to live at the mother's expense there is no need for compensation (who would be compensated, anyways?)

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I see it as an argument of personal responsibility. I don't have to save you from a burning building but if I shout "it's ok I'll save him" and everyone else who could have saved you goes away I have a responsibility to try and save you.

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I would think you have an ethical responsibilty but not a legal one. If you change your mind, no one could (legitimately) force you into that building. But in this scenario, yeah, it would be a pretty [censored] thing to do, and it is possible you might have to compensate for damages done.

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My positive action has caused a positive obligation.

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Again, if you mean an ethical obligation this might be true. But I still don't see how taking the positive action of having sex entails a legal obligation not to have an abortion; responsibility and meeting obligations is great and all, but people have the right to act irresponsibly and to fail to mmet obligatons as well.

[Moseley]

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Abortion on demand is the ultimate State tyranny; the State simply declares that certain classes of human beings are not persons, and therefore not entitled to the protection of the law.

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What pro-lifers do not understand, is that if God wants a person to be born, he/she will be born, even if the 1st mother decides to have an abortion. God simply choses another fetus in which to install the soul.

Or, God can chose not to make another attempt for that soul to be born into this world, and it becomes an angel.

I do not understand the strong position these christians take on abortion when God looks at our life here as nothing more than short test at the beginning of our eternity of life.

An abortion cannot vaporize the soul within the fetus.

God decides who is born into this world, not the mother. The mother only choses whether she is willing to give birth to the fetus that becomes to the vehicle for the soul.

If she choses not to give birth, she answers to God, not me.

[MidGe]

Right Moseley, and god decides who has a miscarriage and who not... All the same ... please blame the designer not the victim if there is a designer! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Moseley]

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Right Moseley, and god decides who has a miscarriage and who not... All the same ... please blame the designer not the victim if there is a designer! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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God does not decide who has a miscarriage and who does not. That is not the way I view it. Many claim that God has our life planned for us. I do not.

God gave us free will to do with as we chose.

That is why there are genocides and wars. He does not decide when and how each of us die.

We view the death of an up and coming college student, with a promising career ahead of him/her as a tragedy. God views it as a test for us, and a shortcut to Heaven for the college student.

Whatever event caused the the death of the student, God had nothing to do with.

[MidGe]

Yes Mosely,

I know many people that have your position. Your god gave humans freewill but did not give a sh*t about the suffering of animals... so it is ok for you to inflict suffering on them! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

This should be on SMP based on your comments.

[Moseley]

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Yes Mosely,

I know many people that have your position. Your god gave humans freewill but did not give a sh*t about the suffering of animals... so it is ok for you to inflict suffering on them! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

This should be on SMP based on your comments.

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Geez. I own 2 110 lb labs and tomcat.
Radar, Buster Brown & Harley.

I chose not to participate in the cruel treatment of animals.

I have no idea what you mean by SMP.

[DblBarrelJ]

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Yes Mosely,

I know many people that have your position. Your god gave humans freewill but did not give a sh*t about the suffering of animals... so it is ok for you to inflict suffering on them! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

This should be on SMP based on your comments.

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Geez. I own 2 110 lb labs and tomcat.
Radar, Buster Brown & Harley.

I chose not to participate in the cruel treatment of animals.

I have no idea what you mean by SMP.

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"Science, Math and Philosophy"

The "Philosophy" over there is simple. If you're not an atheist, you're not as intelligent as someone who is.