Preflop AA or KK in the blinds

[Lunar Tweak]

doesn't matter what the odds are of it holding up are. once we raise PF w/ 8 limpers, we are getting priced to hit our 7.5/1 shot. and after the flop more then enough bets are going in the middle to compensate for the few times we hit and it doesn't hold. in fact, more then enough money is going in the middle after the flop to make raising correct with only say, 5 limpers, let alone 8. how is this being debated so heavily in the Medium stakes forum?

[Bill King]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason they will know that you have AA or KK in this situation was because there is one player at that table that says: "ohw a SB, BB raise, you are up against a monster"

I personally always raise here but I know people who prefer to call when there are 8 callers. They tell me that you give away so much information and you are so out of position. At this table the 2 pair will not even raise all the time and sometimes people limp with KK.

It's a very profitable table because I always play flush draws there.

I think it's a good idea to raise with the suited hands against all those limpers: all those hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQs, KQs, KJs, KTs, QJs. The suited hands are worth a lot and I prefer raising with them but I don't always raise with KTs in the small blind at 10-20 when there are 2 or 3 limpers. The pot is unraised so you should call all those hands for sure, but I wouldn't always raise KTs here, probably 70% of the time depending on how strong the limpers are. Some players love to limp with big PP's or call with AK (I know it's a strange table :-)) so against such players I prefer calling those hands. Even if they call with AT.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i think if you only raise with the nuts out of the blinds your image is pretty bad and you definitly should open up your range for sure because you're going to have a better hand most of the time.

[d10]

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't matter what the odds are of it holding up are. once we raise PF w/ 8 limpers, we are getting priced to hit our 7.5/1 shot. and after the flop more then enough bets are going in the middle to compensate for the few times we hit and it doesn't hold. in fact, more then enough money is going in the middle after the flop to make raising correct with only say, 5 limpers, let alone 8. how is this being debated so heavily in the Medium stakes forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it does. Against 8 players, a set is much less likely to hold up. Where does this idea come from that we can completely ignore what our opponents might have and base our decisions off of our cards and pot odds alone? If some other guy at the end of the table kept reraising with you and trapping the other 8 players in between, would you keep popping it with 22 just because you're getting 9:1 odds to hit a set? The only thing that should matter when raising from the blinds is our preflop pot equity. Exceptions may be made in rare cases (SH/HU with big cards and we think deception will earn us more postflop than raising immediately, multiway pots with tight players who will be more likely to pay off postflop if the pot has been inflated), but for the most part, pot equity will be determining whether we want to raise from the blinds. Monsters like AA don't require much thought, they're going to have a crushing pot equity advantage no matter what the other players hold. Similarly, a hand like 22 shouldn't require much thought, because it will rarely have an edge even over completely random hands. I don't care how many players are in the pot. We could have a 20 handed ring game and everyone could limp to me on the BB, I'm not raising 22. Anyone who does is throwing away money.

[AlanBostick]

[ QUOTE ]
doesn't matter what the odds are of it holding up are. once we raise PF w/ 8 limpers, we are getting priced to hit our 7.5/1 shot. and after the flop more then enough bets are going in the middle to compensate for the few times we hit and it doesn't hold. in fact, more then enough money is going in the middle after the flop to make raising correct with only say, 5 limpers, let alone 8. how is this being debated so heavily in the Medium stakes forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me say this one more time:

The odds against flopping a set with a pocket pair does not equal your equity in the pot with a pocket pair.

With a pocket pair, without taking into account high-card value (in effect, whether your hand can win unimproved), a pocket pair's equity in the pot is about 9%, requiring pot+implied odds of 10:1 to be profitable. The immediate pot odds in a nine-way pot are insufficient to turn a profit when you raise, so you need to rely on post-flop action to earn out your profit when you hit.

[PokerBob]

raise and pray that you get 3bet so you can 4town. /thread.

[andyfox]

I'm pretty much with Justin on this one. You have a hammer, hit 'em over their heads with it unmercifulessly. The only exception, for me, might be on the turn, where if I felt I could check-raise out some hands by letting a late position player take the initiative.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
"I know people who prefer to call when there are 8 callers. They tell me that you give away so much information and you are so out of position."

"they" are wrong...

[/ QUOTE ]

"They" suck.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't raise all your pairs. You're only getting 8:1 on your raise. You need to get about 10:1 to turn a profit, and the raise cuts your implied odds in half.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't need much in implied odds when you're getting 8-1. You hit a set, your overlay is alot more than 10-1.

This is why you can pretty much see any flop with any pair getting 5-1 with at least 2 players in. (ie...raise with coldcaller and you're in BB.)

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care how many players are in the pot. We could have a 20 handed ring game and everyone could limp to me on the BB, I'm not raising 22. Anyone who does is throwing away money.


[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't true. In fact it's more likely a 2 would come on the flop(since it's the least playable card, it's more likely that none of the limpers have one) so your value is actually a bit higher. That's on top of the fact you're getting an easy value raise at that point given how many players are in.

b

[DeathDonkey]

This is what the mid stakes forum has come to now? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey