Have a set. Spew?

[matrix]

We have a made hand with SD value. Why do we want to turn that hand into a bluff preflop?

I'd consider 3betting for value in position with a small pair - but rarely at 25NL and almost never OOP.

1:8 times we flop a set which is a VERY powerful NL hand we deny ourselves the chance to flop the set by 3betting with it preflop cos more often than not villain folds whatever garbage he opened on the button.

I think it's better to call preflop and bluff the flop or float the flop and bluff the turn if we are going to bluff, that way we see a flop and have a little more informaton about hte equity of our hand.

If we 3bet preflop with a small pair and villain has a hand like QQ+ odds on he re-raises us and now we gotta fold and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that instead of folding preflop we would have stacked him if we'd flopped a set and got it all-in then vs his OP.

If you wanna 3bet a wide ranged LP opener I think do it with hands like 67s 78s 68s J9s JTs - stuff that usually flops badly and turns into air rather than hands that have a little SD value before any more cards have even been dealt.

[NeverScurred]

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We have a made hand with SD value. Why do we want to turn that hand into a bluff preflop?


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Because showdown is far, far away and you'll have to navigate 3 streets OOP to get there, possibly calling multiple bets with second and third pair.

I'm confused, though. Are you calling preflop because you want to get to showdown with your "made hand", or are you calling for set value, which in essence means you're playing a draw? As I said, I think the flatcall preflop is standard (I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate here) but when I do it, I don't have aspirations of showing down my 77 unimproved and dragging the pot. I'm mostly just setmining, so I don't see a difference between 77 and an SC - either way, it usually "flops badly and turns into air". Against more aggro buttons, the light 3-bet with 77 can be very profitable, and these are the same kinds of players against which it will be very difficult to show down your hand unimproved if you flat, because they are likely to fire c-bets often.


But yeah, flatting is standard, but it isn't the only option.

[LOwrestling2001]

flatcall here, you don't want to narrow villains range down with a weak hand like 77. what do you do if you 3b and then villain 4b or shoves over your 3b preflop, you have to fold, and you just wasted money. the strength of these PP is so that you can stack those big pairs with a hidden hand on flops. you can take pots other ways, like C/R-ing dry flops, etc.

[matrix]

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I don't see a difference between 77 and an SC - either way, it usually "flops badly and turns into air".

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76s hits paydirt on a 3 flush board when we flop a flush a 589 89T 345 458 board on 66x 77x 666 and 777 flop - thats not a lot of flops out of all the possible combinations.

77 makes a strong hand and NOT a draw on ANY flop with a 7 in it. That sc is "turning into air" waaaaaaay more often than your small pair is. Also 77 will sometimes (rarely yes) win a SD UI - 76s almost never does.

Even when you do have a sc and you do flop an OESD or a gs+fd or a fd most of the time that draw is going to miss. Vs solid opponents draws are hugely unprofitable OOP so we can't play them and should be folding our sc hands preflop - Once in a while it's a great idea to take a hand you were going to throw away anyway and try to make something of it by bluffing with it - if you make this play with a hand that you would have played anyway you are harming your winrate.

Whenever you 3bet light your running the risk that villain will 4bet you all-in (or 4bet you enough to pretty much totally commit you to going all in on a later street) if villain 4bets here we have to throw 77 in the muck - thats BAD cos it means villain probably had AK/QQ+ and if we had flat called AND flopped a set we would have stacked the villain and instead of booking a 12bb loss we could have booked a 100bb win. That is why I think 3betting here is horrible. Yes most of the time he is opening lesser hands and won't even call preflop but I'd much rather make a bluff out of a hand that I was mucking unless I play it like this than a hand that has very good implied odds etc etc vs his opening range.

[NeverScurred]

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I'd much rather make a bluff out of a hand that I was mucking unless I play it like this than a hand that has very good implied odds etc etc vs his opening range.

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The point is that against players with wide opening ranges, you actually don't have very good implied odds because they won't have a hand good enough to stack off every time you flop a set. As villain's opening range gets wider and wider, a 3-bet becomes more and more preferable to a flat. Against villians with tight ranges, a 3-bet is bad because they will fold less often, and a flat is good because they'll have better hands on average, giving you better implied odds to setmine. Against villains with loose opening ranges, a 3-bet becomes better because they'll fold to it more often, and a call becomes worse because they won't stack off to your set as often. There are certain villains who open wide ranges and don't suck postflop who I'd rather fold against here than flat. However, the majority microstakes is not this kind of player, which is why a flat is best against an unknown.


By the way Matrix, I'd just like to say that you've made some good points and I think this is a really good discussion. I get more out of things like this than just straight hand critiques, so thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[manbearpig]

I thought of 3 betting preflop but if I miss with a couple over cards I am in a bad spot OOP. A lot of check folds result.

The only way I was not going to get stacked was to bet/fold the turn. But how can you bet fold there? Lead for 7 or so, pot is $17ish. He would have raised AI making the effective pot $36 that I would need to call $12 into. Must call right? Ahead some plus draw to boat.

[matrix]

OP you are supposed to get stacked here - not going broke on this turn is bad play - getting all your chips in on this turn with a set and redraw to a boat is just totally standard. You played this hand well and got unlucky. Definitely not spew.

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The point is that against players with wide opening ranges, you actually don't have very good implied odds because they won't have a hand good enough to stack off every time you flop a set.

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they don't need to stack off - on average we need to net 12xpreflop call = 36bb in this hand - pot is 7bb on teh flop - if you raise his flop CB (say he lead out 5bb and we re-raised to 20bb and he calls - now we've net 20bb and only need 16 more...)

If villains keep folding to your flop raises - then raise their flop bets a lot more often....


Basically we agree that v an unknown flatting is standard - you need a solid read to either 3bet preflop or fold preflop either of which can be a good play under the right circumstances - and I enjoy good discussion as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MEC2210]

Depending on the villian, I 3bet often w/ small pocket pairs, and it's surely profitable...as stated before if they call with a higher pair or AK (assuming they don't come over) you're most likely getting a stack the times you flop a set...and you're turning a hand that you fold 7 out of 8 times into a hand that's winning you some small pots after you c-bet. However, obv flatcalling is standard, and here there's really no way to avoid it. There's no way 97% of players are folding this. You're not saving yourself any hurting by shoving PF - most of the time with a set (unless on a very, very drawy board) you'll lose a lot of value by shoving on the flop after getting raised, as you might as well type "set" in the chat box. Even most overpairs will fold to you there unless they think you're on a draw.... so yeah, IMO - no way to avoid this. Reload and play it the exact same way the next time and you'll find yourself on the winning end.

I saw someone wrote that your CR was horrible on the turn - I definitely don't agree. You've got one more card coming and there are a lot of two pairs and over-excited overpairs you're dominating here.