44 against 4 opponents

[private joker]

Commerce 20. Table is playing pretty passively. (In one hand, there was a 77AQQ board, a player with Q9 bet the river and a guy with AA just called).

My image is super-solid; I've been card dead and haven't played much at all, but every river showdown I've been at I've won with premium hands.

A weak, bad player limps UTG, an aggro but not great player raises in MP (his range includes ATo, KJo, 88, etc.; he's not one of those live TAGs who only raises big pairs and big aces), and 2 gamboolers cold-call in LP (they love to see flops, love suited connectors etc. but stop peeling/chasing when they miss). I call in the BB with 44.

5 to the flop for 10.5 SBs.

Flop is Q72r.... and I donk.

[bakku]

ew

[Nyquiz]

Decent board to donk with a super solid image, but I hate the fact that there are 4 other people here. I assume if you get raised you're folding, what happens if you get called? Bet/fold turn and check/fold river? How likely is the original raiser to call you down with a hand like JJ or TT?

[npknhldr]

[ QUOTE ]
ew

[/ QUOTE ]

Obv. not optimal but as a change of pace it's do-able.
I mean, are you 3-barelling knowing JJ/TT/QJ/QT/(KQ?) will fold unimproved? Are you check-raising any turn T+, and leading any turn card below T? I wouldn't be surprised if this line gets you HU, and prob. takes down a nice pot while only sacrifing two sb when WAY behind (getting raised by pf raiser, for example).

Of course, player/game description could be skewed to justify your spew (which we all sub-consciously do), just doesn't sound like the commerce i've come to know from your descriptions...

[DeathDonkey]

I check and see the action, if the PFR bets and the coldcallers somehow fold then I'm checkraising. Most times I'm check folding but if I get that "nobody likes their hand but they want to see the turn" then I'll do the same and donk/fold good turns.

-DeathDonkey

[Fianchetto]

[ QUOTE ]

5 to the flop for 10.5 SBs.

Flop is Q72r.... and I donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not good.

[vmacosta]

I've done this before with pretty terrible results, but my smaple size is pretty small. Here's a pokerstove which basically confirms that DeathDonkey is right in saying that you should usually be giving up unless it gets hu with the pfr.
Here's 5-ways and below it is HU vs. pfr:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,074,011 games 28.983 secs 71,559 games/sec

Board: Qd 7h 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 11.513% 11.46% 00.06% 237653 1284.50 { 4c4s }
Hand 1: 28.714% 27.66% 01.07% 573702 22229.67 { 66+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 20.474% 19.47% 01.02% 403872 21066.00 { 99-22, A2s+, K9s+, Q8s+, J8s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 20.421% 19.43% 01.01% 402880 20954.17 { 99-22, A2s+, K9s+, Q8s+, J8s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 4: 18.878% 17.96% 00.93% 372554 19264.67 { 99-22, A2s+, K9s+, Q8s+, J8s+, A7o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

124,740 games 0.003 secs 41,580,000 games/sec

Board: Qs 7h 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.638% 32.64% 00.00% 40713 0.00 { 4d4h }
Hand 1: 67.362% 67.36% 00.00% 84027 0.00 { 66+, ATs+, KQs, QTs+, ATo+, KQo }

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I've done this before with pretty terrible results, but my smaple size is pretty small. Here's a pokerstove which basically confirms that DeathDonkey is right in saying that you should usually be giving up unless it gets hu with the pfr.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, good to see the numbers.

Often I will c/r the flop, but in this spot I didn't like that I had two opponents between the PFR and my checkraise. Other times I will just c/f. But given the bloated pot size and playing styles of the opponents, I was hoping that a donk might represent a Q, and not only could I get overcards to peel and fold, or maybe even fold right away -- but I could also get better hands (a 7, 55-JJ) to lay down. Because I'm saying "I like my hand enough to bet into this field on the flop, so be prepared to call more bets."

It's that poker theory term of implied threat or whatever.

Anyway, I had a hunch that my bet was ill-advised and I'm glad you guys brought me to my senses. I won't be doing this much more in the future.

I got lucky this time around, and everyone folded right there on the flop -- including the PFR who showed TT, but it's important to be reminded that doing this too often will cost me in the long run.

[Captain R]

Not gonna happen.

My other thread I c/r with 44 out of the SB, but raiser was on button. In this hand, you have to check.

[n.s.]

Seems awfully optimistic. This is the sort of play I make when I've been forced to play super-tight and think I can "cash in" some of my tight image, but it never works and some [censored] in late position calls me down with 78o or worse.