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#1
03-15-2007, 11:49 PM
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Freedom
I hear a lot of talk about it, particularly as it relates to AC/communism, but there isn't really much of a discussion about freedom itself. I don't want to set up any straw men, so I'd like to hear some of the main proponents of AC give a defintion.
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#2
03-16-2007, 12:09 AM
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Re: Freedom
Freedom in it's purest form to me would mean the freedom to do whatever you want with your property as long as you don't infringe on anyone elses rights to the same.
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#3
03-16-2007, 12:15 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
Freedom in it's purest form to me would mean the freedom to do whatever you want with your property as long as you don't infringe on anyone elses rights to the same. [/ QUOTE ] a) Define property (and what if you don't have it)? b) What if you and someone else have competing desires: only one of you can do what you want?
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#4
03-16-2007, 12:21 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Freedom in it's purest form to me would mean the freedom to do whatever you want with your property as long as you don't infringe on anyone elses rights to the same. [/ QUOTE ] a) Define property (and what if you don't have it)? [/ QUOTE ] You aquired it through voluntary transactions. edit: Also, your body and mind count as property, so you can't really not have property. [ QUOTE ] b) What if you and someone else have competing desires: only one of you can do what you want? [/ QUOTE ] Not sure what you're asking, example?
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#5
03-16-2007, 12:32 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
You aquired it through voluntary transactions. [/ QUOTE ] So is my body my own property? edit: I see you answered this. How about something I steal and then give to my kids... is that their property? What is a definition of "voluntary"? I assume you mean something like "free from coersion", but I think that this is a much harder thing to define and get a handle on than people give it credit for. Is lying to you about something's value coersion? Is misleading you coersion? Is the threat of emotional or psychological harm (as opposed to physical harm) enough to consider something coersion? [ QUOTE ] Not sure what you're asking, example? [/ QUOTE ] Can you honestly not conceive of a situation in which two people have mutually exclusive desires? Say you want to grow plants but I have a tree that blocks out the sunlight. Or perhaps there is a shortage of some natural resource that we both need to complete some project, and one of us will have to go without.
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#6
03-16-2007, 12:44 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
How about something I steal and then give to my kids... is that their property? [/ QUOTE ] No. Let's say person X steals Item A from person Y, and gives/sells it to person Z. Depending on the ease and efficiecy, I can see two options (a) person X reimburses person Y or (b) person Z loses item A and it's given back to person Y. [ QUOTE ] Can you honestly not conceive of a situation in which two people have mutually exclusive desires? [/ QUOTE ] Sure, but I don't see a situation where these mutually exclusive desires isn't solved by property rights and the defintion of freedom I gave. [ QUOTE ] Say you want to grow plants but I have a tree that blocks out the sunlight. [/ QUOTE ] Well I'd see your tree as violating my property and my freedom to grow plants on my own property. You don't have a right to trees that hinder my property. [ QUOTE ] Or perhaps there is a shortage of some natural resource that we both need to complete some project, and one of us will have to go without. [/ QUOTE ] It's up to whoever owns the natural resource or the rights to them.
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#7
03-16-2007, 01:00 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
You aquired it through voluntary transactions. [/ QUOTE ] I am born with nothing, into total poverty, and all the land around me has already been divided up and is now declared "owned" by people who -- by sheer accident of birth -- just happened to be born onto this planet before I did. I am now forced, by this circumstance, to labor for them and for their enrichment -- because, if I refuse to do this, I am penniless and landless and will starve to death. Please explain to me how free I am. q/q
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#8
03-16-2007, 01:02 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
Please explain to me how free I am. [/ QUOTE ] By my defintion you are free. By your defintion you're probably not. Your point?
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#9
03-16-2007, 04:18 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You aquired it through voluntary transactions. [/ QUOTE ] I am born with nothing, into total poverty, and all the land around me has already been divided up and is now declared "owned" by people who -- by sheer accident of birth -- just happened to be born onto this planet before I did. I am now forced, by this circumstance, to labor for them and for their enrichment -- because, if I refuse to do this, I am penniless and landless and will starve to death. Please explain to me how free I am. q/q [/ QUOTE ] You are free and no one can force you to labor for them. If you choose not to labor for them, I would suggest laboring for yourself so you can accumulate wealth and perhaps buy some land from its owner. maybe then you can "force" paupers to labor for your enrichment.
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#10
03-16-2007, 08:48 AM
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Re: Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
Also, your body and mind count as property, so you can't really not have property. [/ QUOTE ] Is all property equal? Is freedom to do what you wish with your body and mind more important than freedom to do what you wish with your landscaping?
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