B&M 3/6 AKs flops 2 pair, Fills up on turn, I just call

[mikeca]

Loose, mostly passive Friday night B&M 3/6 game. This was a very unusual hand in this game and biggest pot of the session.

Main villain here was UTG+1. He played 80-90% of his hands preflop, and seemed passive both pre and post flop. I had been at the table with him for 2+ hours and I don’t think I had ever seen him raise pre or post flop. Had been winning pot with small flushes and pairs.

MP2 – passive preflop, more aggressive post flop.

UTG – mostly passive preflop, can be aggressive post flop.

I am in the CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls 2 cold, MP2 calls 2 cold, fold, I 3 bet, button fold, SB folds, BB calls 2 cold, UTG calls 2, UTG+1 caps it, everyone calls.

UTG+1 play seems to be screaming big pocked pair. I just don’t think he would do this with AK. I’m thinking AA or KK. I suppose it could be QQ or maybe even JJ, but I’m thinking AA or KK.

Flop, 6 players, 23 SB after rake, J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG+1 checks out of turn, UTG bets, UTG+1 now tries to raise, dealer tells him he can’t raise because he checked out of turn, so he calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, I think about raising, but I know UTG+1 is raising so I cold call (??), BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 3 bets, MP1 fold, MP2 caps it, and everybody calls.

I’m putting UTG+1 on AA or KK. MP2 may have the straight or flush/straight draw.

Turn, 5 players, 22 BB after rake, [J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG+1 who bets. MP2 calls, I think about raising but call (??), BB and UTG call.

Ok, so UTG+1 doesn’t have KK. That leaves AA. I thought about raising but decided no way I could fold to a 3 bet in a pot this big, so I called. I’m not really worried about the other 3 people. They are all on made flushes/straights or flush/straight draws.

River, 5 players, 27 BB after rake, [J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG+1 who bets, MP2 calls, I think about raising again but call, BB and UTG call.

My thinking here was the same as the turn. I couldn’t fold to a 3 bet in the pot, so I just called.

[Man of Means]

There's a lot of MUBSy rationalization here and it's almost tl;dr territory!

Only 1 combination of AA is possible. The board is on steroids and if villain 3bets, you can still feel good about calling down or even putting in more bets with the overlay from a huge field of donkeys.

Raise the turn.

The flop raise is not as important because it seems like a lot of action is going off anyway.

[Craggoo]

It would take a hell of a read for me not to raise the turn. Funny as it may seem (and completely illogical), the type of person you're describing that raises very rarely never EVER raises big pairs. Instead, I find a lot of their raises are small PP's. I know, its completely illogical. But playing like they do isnt exactly smart. Theres only one person i would fold to at my casino if he had played his hand this way by limp re-raising, but thats the only person. Otherwise, raisy-daisy.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Loose, mostly passive Friday night B&M 3/6 game. This was a very unusual hand in this game and biggest pot of the session.

Main villain here was UTG+1. He played 80-90% of his hands preflop, and seemed passive both pre and post flop. I had been at the table with him for 2+ hours and I don’t think I had ever seen him raise pre or post flop. Had been winning pot with small flushes and pairs.

MP2 – passive preflop, more aggressive post flop.

UTG – mostly passive preflop, can be aggressive post flop.

I am in the CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls 2 cold, MP2 calls 2 cold, fold, I 3 bet, button fold, SB folds, BB calls 2 cold, UTG calls 2, UTG+1 caps it, everyone calls.

UTG+1 play seems to be screaming big pocked pair. I just don’t think he would do this with AK. I’m thinking AA or KK. I suppose it could be QQ or maybe even JJ, but I’m thinking AA or KK.

Flop, 6 players, 23 SB after rake, J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG+1 checks out of turn, UTG bets, UTG+1 now tries to raise, dealer tells him he can’t raise because he checked out of turn, so he calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, I think about raising, but I know UTG+1 is raising so I cold call (??), BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 3 bets, MP1 fold, MP2 caps it, and everybody calls.

I’m putting UTG+1 on AA or KK. MP2 may have the straight or flush/straight draw.

Turn, 5 players, 22 BB after rake, [J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG+1 who bets. MP2 calls, I think about raising but call (??), BB and UTG call.

Ok, so UTG+1 doesn’t have KK. That leaves AA. I thought about raising but decided no way I could fold to a 3 bet in a pot this big, so I called. I’m not really worried about the other 3 people. They are all on made flushes/straights or flush/straight draws.

River, 5 players, 27 BB after rake, [J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to UTG+1 who bets, MP2 calls, I think about raising again but call, BB and UTG call.

My thinking here was the same as the turn. I couldn’t fold to a 3 bet in the pot, so I just called.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your logic is not all that off the mark. The only hand that you beat is JJ. That said, 3/6 live players tend to do bad/weird stuff. Given that there is a big draw on the turn, I think you can raise and maybe get coldcalls from players with naked clubs or maybe even gutshots. So even if this guy does have AA, there is some overlay here from the other guys in the pot who are possibly drawing stone dead. If you get 3bet, then it is time to shut it down and just call down.

[James.]

not raising because you think you are beat sucks. we lose to exactly one combination, red aces. go to war on the turn. hammer these guys for value. the pot is huge and Kx, QQ, Qx, JJ, alot of aces and naked [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s aren't going anywhere.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

there's 1 combo of AA. 3 combos of JJ and 6 combos of the other AK.

given the volume of players still in the pot i would be hoping that one of them has the other A making your main villain having the AA even less likely. i would go ahead and pop the turn.

also if you've never ever seen him raise preflop the time he does raise pf doesn't necessarily have to be AA it could be something completely bizarre. for all we know he could have QT and flopped the straight.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
not raising because you think you are beat sucks. we lose to exactly one combination, red aces. go to war on the turn. hammer these guys for value. the pot is huge and Kx, QQ, Qx, JJ, alot of aces and naked [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s aren't going anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] says hi. Unlikely given the preflop action, but it technically is still a hand that beats OP.

You might be exaggerating a bit on how willing players are to call two bets cold on a paired board with a possible straight and flush out there. Depending on what sort of reads you have on the players behind you, I could see going for some overcalls with plans to raise the river.

It is also possible that BB and/or UTG have flushes and would check-raise the turn in which case you could get in a three-bet, but would just call if you raised. That potential plan reminds me a bit of a hand from a Sklansky essay where he called on the river with the nut flush because he felt certain that a smaller flush behind him was going to raise. Depends on opponents/reads, of course, but it's an idea worth considering.

If OP had K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] instead, so that he is now losing to AK as well, does anyone reconsider?