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  #1  
Old 09-12-2007, 02:38 AM
JohnnyGroomsTD JohnnyGroomsTD is offline
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Default Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

During day 3 of the WPT Main event I had a "non-standard" ruling come up. Often times when one of these situations happens, there is no black and white decision, just many different shades of gray. I made a decision that, though not by the book, was reasoned out to the table and made every efoort to protect all players involved. Here is a synopsis of the decision.

Blinds: 10-20K, 3K ante

Tom Franklin opens the pot from the butoon for 65K. Bill Edler, in the small blind, deliberates for a few seconds and announces reriase, as he put in the 65K calling amount. After a pause of a few seconds, the player in the big blind announces reraise, before Bill has the opportunity to announce the amount of his reraise. Before acting on his hand, Bill asks the dealer to call the floor.

I come to the table and get the details from the dealer, repeat them to verify what has happened, and begin to make my decision. Bill asks me what his options are, and what will happen in different scenarios. At this point, I tell Bill that I do not want to divulge the details of my decision until after he makes his decision, as different outcomes will result depending on several factors. At this point, Tom decides to tell Bill what he thinks will happen, including but not limited to making the 3rd player minimum raise after Bill's reraise. Bill asks m to verify this, and I refuse to do so. I did agree that Tom's decision could be a possible outcome, but would not necessarily be true if there were a "Gross Misunderstanding of the required calling amount". In other words, if Bill had raised exactly half of the players remaining chips, I would not have made him move all-in.

This was not an easy one. In this situation, I felt that any decision I made that was a standard decision would be completely unfair to one of the 3 remaining players in the pot. if I allowed Bill the information he asked for, he could effectively manipulate the pot and have last action on the hand, forcing a decision out of Tom that may or may not be the right one. This gives Bill way too much information on the hand, and allows him to completely shut Tom out of the pot. If I allow the verbal action to be taken back under every circumstance, I allow the 3rd player to completely pull a shot, by letting him off the hook and not binding him to an action that he should be comitted to. He then gains a big advantage in the pot, and Bill is put at a disadvantage. I felt this was a bad way to go, as I would be rewarding the guy who made the mistake.

To sum it up, I felt that any decision I could make would be grossly unfair to one of the 3 players in the pot. Due to the varying circumstances, and the fact that it was the final table of a 10K event, added pressures existed, as well as a WPT camera recording the whole decision. I am not sure that my decision was right, and ask for open criticism and discussion by all posters, as I would like to see a standard set on a decision like this to help us all moving forward. I have spoken with jan Fisher at TDA, and will probably ask Matt, David, Linda, and any and all TD's to chime in with opinions on this one. Establishing a precedent would be a good idea on this one.

Let the debate begin........
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  #2  
Old 09-12-2007, 03:19 AM
supernick24 supernick24 is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

you are very well respected as one of, if not THE best in the biz, but imo, you are overthinking this. since bill edler hasnt announced a raise amount, player 3 cannot act yet. the fact that he tried to 3-bet is irrelevant because its not his turn. it gives bill edler an advantage because he knows player 3's intended action, but that happens sometimes, and you just have to live with it. i know you want to be fair, but just tell player 3 to wait his turn, and make bill edler raise at least the minimum.



p.s. i really don't like that you "won't divulge your decision" until bill makes his. this seems to give you a chance to affect the outcome of the tournament, which is just ridiculous. you are the boss, make your ruling, and keep the tourney moving along. thx.
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  #3  
Old 09-12-2007, 05:34 AM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

Has there been an established "standard raise?" If there has been and Elder makes this size raise I would compel the third player to raise. If Elder makes some other size of raise I would rule this out of turn action to be non-binding. This is in a perfect world where you are aware of how the action has been going.

A more practical solution would be to rule this third player's action is not binding. I see no way for Elder to be put at a disadvantage from this player not being compelled to call unless he alters his bet size hoping to take advantage of this player intending to call.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:03 AM
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Default Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

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  #5  
Old 09-12-2007, 08:01 AM
NL Rounder NL Rounder is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

[ QUOTE ]
you are very well respected as one of, if not THE best in the biz, but imo, you are overthinking this. since bill edler hasnt announced a raise amount, player 3 cannot act yet. the fact that he tried to 3-bet is irrelevant because its not his turn. it gives bill edler an advantage because he knows player 3's intended action, but that happens sometimes, and you just have to live with it. i know you want to be fair, but just tell player 3 to wait his turn, and make bill edler raise at least the minimum.



p.s. i really don't like that you "won't divulge your decision" until bill makes his. this seems to give you a chance to affect the outcome of the tournament, which is just ridiculous. you are the boss, make your ruling, and keep the tourney moving along. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the above. In addition, I feel that Tom should be IMMEDIATELY PENALIZED for commenting/influencing action on a hand that is not yet heads up. His action is momentarily complete. Why the hell is he opening his mouth?
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  #6  
Old 09-12-2007, 08:18 AM
DonkeyChip DonkeyChip is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

IMO, Edler announced reraise so he must raise and he can still decide the amount. The BB announced reraise so he should have to raise at least the minimum after Edler acts (or all-in if that happens to be the case based on whatever Edler decides to reraise).

Franklin was going to have to face two reraises before it got to him and that's still what he will face (or possibly a reraise and a call if Edler's reraise puts the BB all-in).

If anyone gets 'screwed' here then ideally it should be the BB because he acted out of turn. By allowing Edler to select his reraise amount after knowing the BB's intended action...it does give Edler an advantage...but mostly at the BB's expense. I don't think Franklin gets screwed by this decision much, if at all.

Telling Edler he must act before you announce your ruling was wrong IMO. That's the whole point of calling the floor immediately.
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2007, 01:23 PM
DonkeyChip DonkeyChip is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

[ QUOTE ]
I did agree that Tom's decision could be a possible outcome, but would not necessarily be true if there were a "Gross Misunderstanding of the required calling amount". In other words, if Bill had raised exactly half of the players remaining chips, I would not have made him move all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more I think about it the more I think this is where you went wrong (IMO of course). IMO, the BB is no longer entitled to 'an understanding of the required calling amount' because he acted out of turn. He apparently didn't care because he didn't know and didn't ask. If Edler had decided to raise exactly half of the BB's chips he damn sure should have been forced to reraise all-in. Why is the BB getting let off easy here...at the expense of the other two in the hand who did nothing wrong?

So I'm even more convinced that letting Edler decide his reraise amount and then forcing the BB to raise at least the minimum is the best decision here. No decision is going to be perfect but the best decision is the one that punishes the person who made the mistake and does not punish those that didn't.
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  #8  
Old 09-12-2007, 01:29 PM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

[ QUOTE ]
I think not telling him what the ruling will be is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Johnny was very right in this. The player does not get to find out exactly what the ruling will be and then use that to gain an advantage. It is very standard among people that understand how to make a fair decision that the pending action needs to be completed. Giving Elder the decision in advance puts him in too strong of a position.
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  #9  
Old 09-12-2007, 01:34 PM
CincyLady CincyLady is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

Johnny,

How I seen it handled when this has happened elsewhere (aka Binions in Las Vegas), was this.

In this situation, the person acting out of turn, would of been required to leave at the very least, the amount of the bet in play of the person last to act prior to the person who's action it (currently) was, in there. (Personally, to be fair here, I think the person acting out of turn, should be required to leave in this case, the 65k that he put out there, period).

Then the other person who's turn it was, would be allowed to make his action. He/she could call, raise, the amount of the previous person before him/her (not based on the amounty of person betting out of turn, but rather the amount based on prior person who did act in turn), or go all in.

The person who acted out of turn, could then decide if he wanted to call, reraise what ever the action of the person he interupted or fold.

However, the amount of money he put in out of turn (which would of at the very least, been the amount of the current bet prior to), would be required to stay in play, no matter what the person who bet out of turn decided they wanted to do.
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  #10  
Old 09-12-2007, 02:53 PM
FortWorthJim FortWorthJim is offline
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Default Re: Decision at WPT Gulf Coast Championship FT

I believe the TDA rule is "Verbal declarations in turn are binding. Verbal declarations out of turn MAY be binding."

Leaves a lot of wiggle room.

Did the other player actually say "reraise" or did he just say "raise"? If Edler put the call amount out first, he may have thought it was a call, having not heard Edler say "raise".

If he actually said "reraise," then he knew Edler was raising, and I agree that he should have to make at least the minimum reraise, up to and including all-in, after Edler puts in his amount.

If he just said "raise" and didn't realize Edler was raising, not calling, then his action should be taken back. TD could consider giving a penalty for influencing action -- Edler's raise amount.
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