KJs vs LP mcTAG opener

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]

I am saying Hero needs to have QQ+ (maybe JJ+) to be ahead of a Villain's 3b calling range which is what I thought was your original point: are we ahead of villains' 3b calling range with the hand we are 3betting

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, so you're saying we need to have QQ+ (maybe JJ+) to be ahead of his 3bet calling range. That very well may be true however you have to keep in mind that some people will call 3bets very loosely.

Regardless, if we're in agreement that hero should have JJ+ to be ahead of villain's 3bet calling range, then why are we 3betting KJs pf? Obviously when he calls we're a major dog, so you're turning KJs into a bluff. Now, if you just call and see a flop, you very well might be the favorite since villain's range is very wide still.

[traz]

The biggest reason for me to 3bet here is to iso and not be squeezed. There are more reasons to 3bet marginal hands otb as opposed to from the blinds.

[Milky]

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest reason for me to 3bet here is to iso and not be squeezed. There are more reasons to 3bet marginal hands otb as opposed to from the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the squeeze comment is valid, however I'm not sure about the iso part. You want to isolate the TAG with your raise, yes? But we've already said that if he's calling your 3bet it's with JJ+ and maybe AK/AQ. How does KJs hold up against this range? I'd much rather 3bet with 54s-98s here.

[Milky]

BTW guys I think this is a great discussion and is making me really think about the plays discussed here.

[traz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The biggest reason for me to 3bet here is to iso and not be squeezed. There are more reasons to 3bet marginal hands otb as opposed to from the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the squeeze comment is valid, however I'm not sure about the iso part. You want to isolate the TAG with your raise, yes? But we've already said that if he's calling your 3bet it's with JJ+ and maybe AK/AQ. How does KJs hold up against this range? I'd much rather 3bet with 54s-98s here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Iso in the sense that playing against him in a 3bet pot will be easier (and probably more profitable) than playing a 4-way pot if sb and bb come along.

[Daniel LeClaire]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter what his opening range is. It matters what his 3bet CALLING range is. If he folds to your raise then you can have ATC here, so when he calls will KJs be ahead of his range?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, they both matter. If he's opening a wide range and his calling range is small (which a mcTAG usually is) than 3 betting a wide variety of hands will be profitable. KJs is a good hand to do it with and, if called, I at least have something of a hand.

[andy099]

I fold or 3 bet here . Calling is bad imo unless your are going to float in profitable situations.

3 bet means that he has to fold a lot of his hands that don't play well OOP(e.g AQ,AJ,KQ etc) as well as all garbage, when he does call you have the iniative in the pot and will take down pot a good amount of time with c-bet, and your also playing a pot in position with a hand that has good posibilities(2nd nut flush,nut straight, two pair)

KJ is a mediocre hand to call with even in position as easily dominated, by all means open with it but i never call unless there are already 2 people in pot or fish opens.

An occasional 3 bet in position against decent opponents with medium strength hands is a good play imo as it disguises when you have a really big hand

[Hail Eris]

[ QUOTE ]
i second what milky says

and i also agree with babalatexi's line post flop

this is a call pf,
a call on the flop,
and bet on turn if villain checks, or fold if villain bets again

I think this is pretty standard if you ask me. you should be floating tons of flops here against a CO pf raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems completely backwards to me. TAG vs TAG, villain barrels the Ace with a very wide range and we should shove over him with all of our new outs. OTOH if he checks the Ace, he will often show up with a made hand planning to c/c or c/rai and snap off a float. Our outs are very disguised, we can rep a busted spade draw when we hit, and it would suck very much to be checkraised. Therefore, if he checks, we should check behind.

Anyway, I think you can either float or raise this flop, and you can either 3bet or flatcall PF, and I don't think either line is clearly better. While this certainly seems like a good board for a float, villain is no doubt aware of this, and will 2barrel with a high frequency. So I don't see that floating is clearly better than raising. I think the hand is fine as played, provided you can profitably raise this flop with all your Queens.

[Babalatexi]

Apparently I misread the hand, I thought we had nothing on the turn but were just floating cause the flop was paired. Now I wouldn't mind a turn raise if villain bets.

[matrix]

woah - this thread got a lot more replies than I expected.

I am still not convinced that 3betting preflop vs a very ABC villain who I have position on is optimal with KJs - when called we are dominated or worse I think and when the pot gets big we have less playing room to try things postflop.

I think w/ position I can win a larger pot without 3betting than I can when I 3bet as usually when I 3b it gets folded pre. Perhaps I think wrong. It's good for shania certainly and I do 3b here sometimes I just chose to flat this time, partly cos *I* am uncomfortable playing 3bet pots still - I suppose the only way to get more comfortable is to practice.

Traz: "being squeezed" - getting squeezed at 50NL is so far down the list of things I worry about. IME it just doesn't happen often enough - and especially when the SB is big fish who thinks squeezing is for lemons (fish, lemon - oh nevermind) I take the point tho that this IS something you need to consider at higher limits. I'm happy if bigstacked fish SB comes for the ride and am expecting him to call lots here - then I have position on TWO bad players with a useful drawing hand and a "lot" =) of implied odds - which strikes me as not all that bad the 20% or so of the time I flop goot.

Perhaps I should raise bigger on the flop or plan instead to flat the flop and bet/raise a scary turn. When I raise flops it's usually to about that kind of size. I get folds often enough to make it profitable despite offering sweet odds for villain to chase his flush if the fd is what he has. I don't want to pay more than I have to to get the job done, IME so far at 50NL that kind of size works out OK as villains seem t worry more about "zomg he raised" than how much I raised and the odds they have after I do.

The way things work out if a non [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T hits or any non Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I just hit the jackpot most likely and I check to preserve my implied odds hoping for a big payday, half expecting a bluff /misplaced value bet from villain on a sweet river for me - planning to check behind river again if villain gives up.

It didn't come and I crawl out of there thinking I folded the best hand a few% of the time - but putting villain on Axss more often than not.

Anyways lots of good food for thought here - thanks for the great content.