What do you think about Middle Eastern relations?

[Bad Beat Maker]

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American ME studies grad from University of Massachusetts posting from Damascus, Syria.

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As far as I am concerned America should stop all forms of support to Egypt. Egypt is a moderately oppressive pseudo-dictatorship which has the worst of both worlds: a failed socialist system and a militant government. Its amazing how a few weeks here can make you support isolationist policies.

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I agree with you that Mubarak is a complete reprobate. I'd qualify him as pretty much a full on dictator, nothing psuedo about it. I think an interesting track for America to take vis a vis Egypt would be to strongly encourage a democratic transition when that frail [censored] finally dies. I don't mean "encourage" democracy like we did in Iraq, but withold our massive aid package until they hold quasi legitimate parliamentary elections. Allow the Ikhwan to run freely and openly. I'd assume that they would make fairly large gains, possibly even winning a plurality. Let them form a government and continue with our aid package, only witholding if they reneged on Sadats agreeemnt with Israel. The reason the Ikhwan are so popular now is that by and large the secular governments of the last 100 years have been a complete failure in terms of widely raising standards of living/providing services to the general populace. One of two things would happen under an Ikhwan formed government, either they would build on there existing social welfare institutions successfully converting them to a statewide level,or they would fail. Should the latter happen hopefully a moderate secular candidate would emerge, and at worst another military man would emerge and we'd be back where we started only now the Ikhwan would have had a crack at it and failed.

Most of the crazies who have split from the Ikhwan (Islamic Jihad etc...) have done so because of the failed policy of gradualism that have hisotrically been employed in Egypt, Jordan etc...Despite token seats in the Egyptian "parliament" they've never held any real power. Give the mainstream Brothers a chance in the name of democracy. The worst (best) that can happen is that they'll fail.

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I do not believe this is the way to go. This will help radical Muslims to further their thought process on "OMG USA gives more aid to Israel than anyone else in the world but hates Arab nations."

I think the US should try to reach more diplomatic means with nations such as this instead of shunning them or turning the shoulder. Look how much we are trying with Iran, do you see that same effort in Africa?

[theweatherman]

Good points, and it would probably work.

Personally I dont like the religious nature of the MB. I dont think that it (or any religion based movement) should be any where near controlling a government. But really Egypt doesnt have too far to fall to be at the bottom. But hell, at least most of their buildings are intact (more than many can say in the ME)

As an aside, are you in Syria for school or work? Also, iyo how are job prospects for ME studies majors?

[theweatherman]

Its not a question of the difference in aid between Israel and the arab states that causes islamic militants to hate the US. It is complicated, but a big part is that aid to Israel exists in the first place.

What are osama'a big complaints? US troops in ME/SA and Israel existing.

Most of ME diplomacy (or any diplomacy really) is $$. Aid packages are paramount because these nations are very, very poor. Iran is special because they have a ton of oil. Africa is not because it has, um, Africans.

if us cuts off aid to egypt then egypt will certainly take major notice. If mubarak didnt change things voluntarily he would certainly lose his means of keeping power fairly quickly.

[theweatherman]

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I'm no racist, I'd sex a girl from the Middle East.

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good luck, just dont come to egypt.

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Sometimes I just wish the whole world would wake up tomorrow a completely new, civilized place. But as we've seen in Iraq, that just doesn't happen.

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Civilized to what standards? In egypt I have no fear of being mugged and killed like I do when Im in washington DC. A dark alley in cairo means that it will be harder to see where your going, not a death sentence.

Iraq is not a functioning state. It is in a civil war. If you remember history class a lot of uncivilized things happened in the "civilized" USA during our own civil war.

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I'm reminded of a post here recently from a guy in NY that got a rock thrown at him and his dad by some black kids, which made him wonder if black people were, in fact, the most angry, violent, inconsiderate, etc, people there are. I think the Middle East really shows what angry, violent, inconsiderate people can act like. I mean, I haven't read the entire history of that region, but I'm pretty sure they've all been trying to kill each other since before America was founded.

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Seems to me that humanity as a whole has been trying to kill each other since day one. The only difference between a sunni killing someone in Iraq and a US soldier doing the same is that all of our civilized technology has been put into the latter. I guess you need to have a certain level of civilization before you can flatten entire city blocks with an airstrike. Those poor uncivilized bastards, they have to do it the old fashioned way.

[Bill Haywood]

U.S.

Dominating the oil reserves is how the US gains leverage over its rivals in East Asia and Europe.

The "great game" of empire benefits special interests far, far, more than the lower classes that do the bleeding.

Out now!

And this business about how "they" have been killing each other for 1500 years is absolute crap. Like Europe, or the Americas, there are plenty of wars and conflicts, but there's also plenty of time when people get along just fine. Wars arise out of history, not some essential trait of Muslims.

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a big part is that aid to Israel exists in the first place.

What are osama'a big complaints? US troops in ME/SA and Israel existing.

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You say this as if it is all ancient history that people just will not get over.

Plenty of people are resigned to Israel existing, and plenty more would get used to it, if Israel would stop expanding, declare its borders, and respect the property rights of deed holders. The occupation is an endless, current atrocity, not a fait accompli of 1948.

[Goater]

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Plenty of people are resigned to Israel existing, and plenty more would get used to it, if Israel would stop expanding, declare its borders, and respect the property rights of deed holders. The occupation is an endless, current atrocity, not a fait accompli of 1948.

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And you are not fuly resigned to the existence of Israel? You believe that the State of Israel could be undone?

What "expanding" are you talking about exactly? The pullout from Gaza? The Oslo era withdrawal from over 90% of the polulation centers in the West Bank? The countless offers of a specific final peace deal? I assure you that Israelis' would vote tomorrow for a full or almost full pullout from the West Bank if they really believed that they would receive genuine peace in return. Unfortunately, as Hamas (and probably) Fatah dont believe in a 2 state solution and refuse to relinquish such basic deal breakers like the "right of return" and, in the case of Hamas, do not even recognise Israels' right to exist, I believe that Israelis' will not have the opportunity to facilitate the creation of a Palestinian state in the near future.

And the occupation you are presumably talking about was that of 1967 surely? Or do you mean the State of Israel itself? In which case, are you hoping for a one state solution - the entire land being Palestinian?

If you seriously believe that Israel is the fundamental problem in the middle east, rather than brutal unpopular dictatorships that use and perpetuate the state of war with Israel as a way of never having to tend to their populations' wellbeing and eventually relinquish power, you are continuing a long tradition of ME thinking that will condemn Palestinians and other Arabs to endless suffering.

Nice of you to quote Bin Laden too - yep, thats why he attacks the US, lol. Or is he simply a lunatic who wants to Islamise the world and is using Israel as an excuse to attack the west exactly as I mentioned above?

[Bill Haywood]

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What "expanding" are you talking about exactly?

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The folks recently pulled out of Gaza are being built apartments at government expense in the West Bank. The settler population in the West Bank has been going up every year since 1967. Ground is still being broken on new settlements.

B'Tselem, Israeli Information Center on Human Rights

The Oslo 90% was far less than meets the eye. It did not include the roads.

Sure, the radicals will not accept Israel. But why is that a reason to CONTINUE seizing land?

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And you are not fuly resigned to the existence of Israel? You believe that the State of Israel could be undone?

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I doubt it can be undone, and it certainly should not be undone violently. But people who believe in freedom should not resign themselves to the existence of a state based on ethnic supremacism. It is an apartheid regime. Not even South Africa had white-only roads.

[Chips Ahoy]

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Also America should stop the unquestioning support of israel and Saudi Arabia. this would solve a huge number of problems we face here literally over night.


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US Foreign aid 2006

US to ME ($5,624,000,000): <ul type="square"> [*]Israel 2,520,000,000[*]Egypt 1,795,000,000[*]Pakistan 698,000,000[*]Palistinians 150,000,000[*]Jordan 461,000,000[/list]
The US interests would be better served cutting them all off at once, and not selling any weapons there either.

[Bad Beat Maker]

A great book to read for everyone interested in this thread would be Blood and Oil. It's a great look at how President Bush (who I actually voted for and try to support) led by Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz have basically changed the world.

Also look into the PNAC (Project for a New American Century).

Also check this out:
http://pastebin.org/3374

[Goater]

The vast majority of people that were forced out of their homes in Gaza by the Israeli government are being resettled inside Israel proper. The few that have moved to the West Bank have mainly settled into already established settlements. I am sure a few have also set up new "illegal" settlements but this would be no more than a few caravans, etc... There is no organised official resettlement of Gaza Jews into new West Bank settlements.

I personally agree that there should be no more settlement in the West Bank but the status of what is there already can only be determined by a bilateral peace deal between Israelis and Palestinians.

The settlement population of course has been increasing - it was official governement policy for decades under both labour and likud. The rate of increase has significantly slowed now. Anyway, i dont want to derail this thread with an in depth discussion of this.

For me it comes down to this - all the Palestinians have to do is recognise Israel, renounce the right of return and sit down to talk in good faith. With the current government im sure they would get a very good deal.

As for the "apartheid" nonesense, not sure what to say. Inside Israel proper, im sure you are well aware that arabs have full rights. Have you ever been to a hospital in Israel? Its the best way to see how dishonest the apartheid statements are. As for the occupied territitories, well thats a different story. Its effectively a war situation and comparisons to apartheid are inapplicable.

In any case, I agree with you that any expansion should stop and im all for a 2 state solution. However, i dont think this is a possibility due to the choices of the Palestinians and the negative interference of Egypt, Syria, Iran and others. In my opinion, as soon as the surrounding countries want peace with Israel and the creation of a Palestinian state, this would happen very quickly. Unfortunately, it is not in the interests of many arab countries to end the conflict with Israel. This is the sad reality of middle east relations that prevents a resoultion - not a handful of fanatic jews (a small proportion of West Bank settlers) who believe in "greater israel".