Womens event #17

[CincyLady]

I see your point, but as I mentioned in the other thread (that I posted the link to), sometimes the WSOP event is a woman's first introduction into poker (IE: They only came along to the WSOP to support a friend or loved one), and it's a known fact that most women prefer to learn something the first time, with fellow women.

As for the Satellites, I was meaning mixed satellites, like the ones that are held at Ceaser's Indiana every Saturday for $225 each.

Many woman can more afford that price, than the higher prices once they get to the WSOP with no guarentee that they will actually make it into the 10k event, after spending money to travel and stay there.

If they had satellites into the ME that also included airfare and hotel, at every Harrah's property that has a cardroom at least once a week, it would benefit everyone, men and women alike.

Plus, since money seems to be more of an issue with women than men, I think that this way you would see more women in the ME, since they could satellite their way in via their local Harrah's Casino.

[Signal777]

As a female, I have never and will never play a womens only event. I find it insulting that they are even held, as if the belief is that the only way a woman can win is if no men are involved. It wouldn't really mean much to me to "win" a competition where 95% of the players (the average male/female ratio of poker players I believe, at least from what I have seen) are excluded. I know I would be upset if there was a male only competition, so I think men should be upset with female only ones. In certain circumstances, I can see mens/womens only events, such as boxing.

That being said, I have yet to win a MTT. I have recently started playing (within the past year) and my closest to a win in a MTT (140 players) was third. I have won many SNGS where I am the only woman at the table, but no MTTS (yet). Bottom line, if women want equality, they need to avoid situations where there is inequality, towards either side.

It was difficult for me the first time I went to a casino, I had no idea of the real rules of the game or even how to sign up. Some people were helpful, others rude, but I did learn. I have had guys treat me differently than other guys, some better, some worse, but I don't really care. I actually think being a woman has a huge advantage at the table against men because when I really need to steal a pot, they just don't assume I am capable of bluffing. This is a huge plus for me.

The last MTT I was at, a woman joined my table and she seemed like a good solid player. She got all her money in with pocket aces against a guys pocket jacks, and he hit his set to knock her out (he only outchipped her by a small amount). She started crying. Literally. I couldn't believe it, I felt like it set us back 20 more years. Some guy asked me if I was going to cry too when I got knocked out, so I told him he wouldn't have the opp to find out since he would be out b4 me. I was happy to bust him personally.

[Moose]

[ QUOTE ]
As a female, I have never and will never play a womens only event. I find it insulting that they are even held, as if the belief is that the only way a woman can win is if no men are involved. It wouldn't really mean much to me to "win" a competition where 95% of the players (the average male/female ratio of poker players I believe, at least from what I have seen) are excluded. I know I would be upset if there was a male only competition, so I think men should be upset with female only ones. In certain circumstances, I can see mens/womens only events, such as boxing.

That being said, I have yet to win a MTT. I have recently started playing (within the past year) and my closest to a win in a MTT (140 players) was third. I have won many SNGS where I am the only woman at the table, but no MTTS (yet). Bottom line, if women want equality, they need to avoid situations where there is inequality, towards either side.

It was difficult for me the first time I went to a casino, I had no idea of the real rules of the game or even how to sign up. Some people were helpful, others rude, but I did learn. I have had guys treat me differently than other guys, some better, some worse, but I don't really care. I actually think being a woman has a huge advantage at the table against men because when I really need to steal a pot, they just don't assume I am capable of bluffing. This is a huge plus for me.

The last MTT I was at, a woman joined my table and she seemed like a good solid player. She got all her money in with pocket aces against a guys pocket jacks, and he hit his set to knock her out (he only outchipped her by a small amount). She started crying. Literally. I couldn't believe it, I felt like it set us back 20 more years. Some guy asked me if I was going to cry too when I got knocked out, so I told him he wouldn't have the opp to find out since he would be out b4 me. I was happy to bust him personally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Signal,

You are by far and away not the first person to echo these sentiments, including the one that women actually have a biological ADVANTAGE at poker when competing against men. They have an advantage, yet they get preferential treatment anyways? Go figure.

And you are right, sometimes we simply have to give women "seperate but equal" setups, such as in heavily physical sports. So, even though female athletes might make up 0.1% of pro sports if they had to compete directly against men for jobs in hockey, football, baseball and tennis, we acknowledge this and in an effort to let women shine at all, we segregate these sports.

Thats' the thing - we should segregate by gender for only one reason - because we HAVE to. The segregation of an activity by gender, therefore, carries and ALWAYS will carry the notion (as you pointed out) that it is needed. It is not needed in poker, so it should not ever be done, period. For women's sake more than men's sake, for reasons you pointed out here.

Incidentally, I have found that I have been able to exploit gender assumptions too. Just as you may find that men find you incapable of bluffing, I've run into women who find that, because they're so cute and I'm so dumpy, that all they have to do is bet and I'll give them credit for the nuts. Flop middle pair ace kicker, check-call check-call check-call. Fun times.

[Signal777]

Hi Moose,

I can see where you can use the gender thing in reverse. I will have to look out for that. The thing is, I can usually figure out who is going to play into the male/female thing fairly early on.

I have to say, though, there is really nothing I like more than knocking out a guy who makes a comment about women players being inferior. I am not in any way referring to you here btw. Believe me this happens almost every time I go.

The last time the man asked if I was going cry too. The time before that, I was at the final table. This guy looks directly at me (only woman standing) and says loudly, may the best MAN win. I soooooo loved checking the nuts (poker gods were watching this one) and having him push all in against me. I know I was lucky to pick up the nuts at the right time, but still it feels so great to do to a guy like this.

I also love to let guys bully me early on, when it doesn't really matter much. They see me as a weak tightie, and its a good set up for later. I purposely use the same body language when I do my weak tight fold as when I have the nuts and check it to an overly aggressive player. I know some of these guys are trying to tilt me with the gender comments, but I have to honestly say I get more of a kick out of it than get insulted.

I acted out of turn a couple of weeks ago, and some guy (who wasn't even in the hand) actually said "thats why we shouldn't let women play". The guy whose turn it was to act had his cards completely covered by his hands and I didn't see them, nor did the dealer. The dealer looked at me, which I thought meant it was my action, and we both didn't see this guy in the hand. I apologized, and the dealer said, sir please don't cover your cards completely.

This should have been over, and the first time he said it I ignored it. Then, he repeats "we shouldn't let them play". For the next 45 minutes or so, every time it was to me to act, I looked at him and said, "do I go now?". He busted out after that, and as he was walking away I actually heard him say "the bitch who doesn't know when its her turn tilted me".

[Moose]

Signal,

how old was this guy that was derogatory to you? There's a chance he may have been around for the birth of women's suffrage and didn't much care for it either.

As for sandbagging the nuts, did you at least slow roll him for good measure? Or throw in a "geez, looks like there weren't ANY men around to win after all"?

You have a good little "scam" set up there. I've seen more than one female player conveniently act meek at the right time. Imagine being able to limp UTG with aces, call a big (6x) raise, then being able to check-call someone all-in on a 4-2-2 board and watching someone turn over KQ. That happened at a satellite tonight, and I know the guy was steaming inside. And this woman played dumb like you couldn't believe.. and I'm SURE I was the only person to notice she was opening for a raise 15-20% of the time as well.

Check-calling the nuts? THAT'S why we shouldn't let women play :P

But seriously.. as long as we are segregating poker tournaments, the message will be spread that women "can't hack it with the big boys." As long as we trip over ourselves giving inordinate attention to women for no other reason than their gender (see the WSOP 3k Hi/Lo Stud event for a good example), people will think that inordinate attention is justified because, well, women "just can't hack it with the big boys."

Until such time, continue to exploit these simpletons [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Signal777]

Moose,

It seems that most of the men that make comments are at least in their 40's, maybe older. I don't ever recall a derogatory comment coming from a guy who looked to be in his 20's/30's, you make a good point.

As I stated earlier, I couldn't agree more about segregating tourneys, and I don't think gender should at all be an issue in poker. For the most part, now that I am somewhat of a regular at the casino, I have become "one of the guys" so to speak. I much prefer it this way. On more than one occasion, I have heard guys swear at the table (not uncommon) and another guy "correct" him by saying "shut up, there is a WOMAN at the table". I am really not that delicate, I can take a guy swearing, its no big deal. I have said, don't act differently because of me, really, but I hear repeatedly, shhhh... don't swear, there is a LADY here.

I have also had guys stand up and pull out the chair for me when I get to my table, usually a good sign that they will play me differently than the male players. Still, although I see myself as supporting equality, I have to admit I enjoy these acts of chivalry (pulling out the chair, opening the door, etc.).

I had one man who was in the sb once fold to my bb, when I didn't even have enough left to make the big. He would have literally had to put in 50 in chips to match my blind (they were at 400/800 with antes and he was big stack) to win all of the chips in the middle and knock me out. We were almost at the bubble. He mucked, smiled at me, and said, I couldn't knock you out, you add beauty to the table. I couldn't believe he did it (btw, I am not claiming I am beautiful here, he actually said that literally). This enabled me to take the third place finish, the closest I have gotten to winning so far.

I also remember one guy coming up after a tourney to tell me he thought I played well, and I said thanks. He said, really "you play like a man". I thought it was funny, I know he meant it as a big compliment and just said "thanks" and left it at that. One of the dealers also told me he thought I was "the best woman player" to play the tourneys and sngs, and I just said thanks. I am working on having the woman part removed, and one day just having him say "the best player". Long road ahead, but I am trying.

[Moose]

Signal,

I think you are going to get there. You have the right attitude, that's for sure, and that is a big part of the occasion. Of course, if someone mucks on the bubble when the pot is laying him 40-1 and I'm at the table, expect me to go ballistic [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

These awkward compliments you get are the best you are going to get until society sorts itself out. Did you see the WSOP coverage for the stud hi-lo event? While the "Two Ladies Left" or "Girl on Girl Action" posts were absolutely hilarious, the funniest was the eliminations for 16-14th place.

16th: Rocco Bucci Eliminated in 16th Place ($7,491) (no additional text)

15th: Barbara Lewis Eliminated in 15th Place ($7,491)
Barbara Lewis' low draw and flush draw didn't come in against Eli Elezra's two pair and she was eliminated from the tournament. What a show she put on! Barbara Lewis certainly made a name for herself in the poker world with this finish...

14th: Bruce Atkinson Eliminated in 14th Place ($8,468)
Michael Kim caught a set of deuces on the river vs. Bruce Atkinson's sevens and fours to eliminate him from the tournament.

Uh huh. But everything I've ever said about women players getting extra attention because of their gender is a lie. "What a show she put on!" "She made a name for herself here!" "Of course, who cares about the two dumpy middle-aged Caucasians who got knocked out at around the same spot!" (I added the last one, I confess).

[Signal777]

Moose, I didn't see it, so far I have only watched hold em tourneys. I did notice that at the 2006 WSOP they made a special mention of the last woman standing though.

Thanks for the compliment, I hope to get there one day, its happening little by little. I remember one guy being knocked out and saying as he left the table "good luck guys". He ran back a minute later and he said to me, "you know I meant you too, right?" to which I replied, yes. He said, I consider you "one of the guys now, at this point". I am getting there.

Gotta run to my parents house for Fathers Day.

HAPPY FATHERS DAY, for all of you out there who are dads. My dad was the first person to teach me poker, and for that I owe him big.

[change100]

Dear Signal,

I wrote the coverage for the $3,000 stud hi-lo event. And the last time I checked (one boob... two boobs...) I was a woman.

You two need to grow a sense of humor. Seriously, you're going to pick apart my choice of "Girl on Girl Action" as a headline as well as the fact that I drew attention to Lewis' deep finish? Seriously, a debate over gender roles in tournament coverage?

Wow. LOL, donkaments indeed.

[Signal777]

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Signal,

I wrote the coverage for the $3,000 stud hi-lo event. And the last time I checked (one boob... two boobs...) I was a woman.

You two need to grow a sense of humor. Seriously, you're going to pick apart my choice of "Girl on Girl Action" as a headline as well as the fact that I drew attention to Lewis' deep finish? Seriously, a debate over gender roles in tournament coverage?

Wow. LOL, donkaments indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear Change,

Thanks for pointing out I need a sense of humor, but you need to pay attention. I stated I didn't even see that event, nor have I read coverage of it.