Religion A perfectly rational belief

[madnak]

Yes, but that's what is so amazing about the mind. It's part of imagination. Religion restricts that tendency, the abililty of the mind to create awesome music out of virtually nothing, by forcing it all into a box of dogma. Now, spirituality I see differently. But it's actually possible for the brain to fill things in such that different elements contradict themselves - and that can be the source of incredible value. But again, religion restricts that. Religion stifles imagination by turning it toward stasis, and what you're talking about is the most remarkable example of dynamism in the known universe.

[JayTee]

I don't think your example supports your argument as much as you'd like. The brain doesn't fill in as much as it just ignores what it doesn't know. In this view, religion is still irrational.

[Skidoo]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you do when your brian tells you the world is spinning? If you are like me you lay down until it stops. Soon your mind stop telling you it's spinning and everything is OK. But in the case where your mind is telling you that the creation of the universe, and the creation of you, is God. You have few options but to "lay down" until the spinning stops.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when your brain tells you that the evidence of your senses as interpreted through certain mental activity adds up to a legitimate representation of some sort of "objective" world out there, lie down until it stops?

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, but that's what is so amazing about the mind. It's part of imagination. Religion restricts that tendency, the abililty of the mind to create awesome music out of virtually nothing, by forcing it all into a box of dogma. Now, spirituality I see differently. But it's actually possible for the brain to fill things in such that different elements contradict themselves - and that can be the source of incredible value. But again, religion restricts that. Religion stifles imagination by turning it toward stasis, and what you're talking about is the most remarkable example of dynamism in the known universe.

[/ QUOTE ]As you likely already know I'm pretty much a "foxhole atheist". So I'm not advocating that religion is correct, quite the opposite. I'm saying that religion is incorrect, but the belief in a God that controls the unknowns was and is to a certain extent a rational belief to hold. Not becuase of it's correctness, but because our minds tells us it's correct. The external arguemnts cannot compete with what our minds tell us.

And I of course agree with the rest of your post.

[madnak]

I agree with that, but I also think very few people see religion in that light.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what do you do when your brian tells you the world is spinning? If you are like me you lay down until it stops. Soon your mind stop telling you it's spinning and everything is OK. But in the case where your mind is telling you that the creation of the universe, and the creation of you, is God. You have few options but to "lay down" until the spinning stops.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when your brain tells you that the evidence of your senses as interpreted through certain mental activity adds up to a legitimate representation of some sort of "objective" world out there, lie down until it stops?

[/ QUOTE ]Hey skidoo, My mind tells me that it only my subjective view of reality that is in it. However I assume an objective world de facto. I can glimpse at what it is, but it's always thru the filters I apply. Science, and knowledge are the most effective way of getting subjective reality, the only one you can know of, inline with objective reality.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with that, but I also think very few people see religion in that light.

[/ QUOTE ]I would like for more people to view religion in that light. Especially those that are, but also those that are not.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your example supports your argument as much as you'd like. The brain doesn't fill in as much as it just ignores what it doesn't know. In this view, religion is still irrational.

[/ QUOTE ] Maybe not, if not, I'm fairly(50/50) sure that it's just my laziness that I didn't type several pages on the topic. I am almost certian that the brian must fill in the missing info, almost all the time, when appropriate. You never see a black hole in your vision, where you are blind. You never see a black hole in your minds eyes regarding your creation and existance.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
Where the retina connects to the optic nerve, the mind forces itself to fill in the details of the missing information. Don't believe me look here. Filling in the details of the unknown is a marker of a healthy brain. When people say that the religious are being irrational it's not entirely true. If you don't want to hear any of this mumbo jumbo regarding your brain filling in the details regarding religion, because you think it might change your mind. Don't worry it can't. Thinking rationally cannot override the brains directive to fill in the details. So go ahead and for a brief moment it time, imagine what the world would look like if we filled in the blind spots regarding our origins, and unknown causes of natural phenomenon.


You should be very familiar with what you would expect. It's a well known concept of the god of the gaps. Gods control the lighting, and the winds and volcanos and the moon and the sun, when our brains fill in the details that we are blind to. We now know that evolution is a much more likely story than creationism in the bible. But it was perfectly rational to believe creationism before we had the knowledge that we have now. We did not have a choice but to fill in the details.

Although god of the gaps is a descriptive what. It doesn't address how or why. How is that the brain forces you to fill in something regarding ones unknown knowledge about your existence. You have no choice in the matter. You can not stop it from doing it. And it's a damn good thing that the brain does this, without asking our permission. We would be lost without it.

So we atheists come at xtians with charges of irrationality, it is a weak charge. They are being very rational. Their mind has filled in the details regarding the context of their surroundings. ID as a religion might be a fairly perfect filling in of details. But it fails when we use ID to overwrite the knowledge we have.

The main two things that are left are the creation (cause of creation) of the universe, and the emergence (cause of emergence) of life. I implore you to not go down the same road that is proven to be at least in part the quite intelligent and necessary context based making stuff up.

edit: horid typos

[/ QUOTE ]


I think there are many many orders of magnitude difference between ...

on the one hand, a single brain processing an incoming torrent of incomplete-and-sometimes-inconsistent-information in split seconds and having to make a best guesstimate of what's happening that will do for the moment,

and on the other hand billions of people with entire lifetimes to communicate, experiment, theorize, and apply all kinds of checks and balances in a long term cooperative search for the truth.

Of course the latter malfunctions in all kinds of ways too. But it's a completely different malfunction.

In any case there is really no excuse for religion existing.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where the retina connects to the optic nerve, the mind forces itself to fill in the details of the missing information. Don't believe me look here. Filling in the details of the unknown is a marker of a healthy brain. When people say that the religious are being irrational it's not entirely true. If you don't want to hear any of this mumbo jumbo regarding your brain filling in the details regarding religion, because you think it might change your mind. Don't worry it can't. Thinking rationally cannot override the brains directive to fill in the details. So go ahead and for a brief moment it time, imagine what the world would look like if we filled in the blind spots regarding our origins, and unknown causes of natural phenomenon.


You should be very familiar with what you would expect. It's a well known concept of the god of the gaps. Gods control the lighting, and the winds and volcanos and the moon and the sun, when our brains fill in the details that we are blind to. We now know that evolution is a much more likely story than creationism in the bible. But it was perfectly rational to believe creationism before we had the knowledge that we have now. We did not have a choice but to fill in the details.

Although god of the gaps is a descriptive what. It doesn't address how or why. How is that the brain forces you to fill in something regarding ones unknown knowledge about your existence. You have no choice in the matter. You can not stop it from doing it. And it's a damn good thing that the brain does this, without asking our permission. We would be lost without it.

So we atheists come at xtians with charges of irrationality, it is a weak charge. They are being very rational. Their mind has filled in the details regarding the context of their surroundings. ID as a religion might be a fairly perfect filling in of details. But it fails when we use ID to overwrite the knowledge we have.

The main two things that are left are the creation (cause of creation) of the universe, and the emergence (cause of emergence) of life. I implore you to not go down the same road that is proven to be at least in part the quite intelligent and necessary context based making stuff up.

edit: horid typos

[/ QUOTE ]


I think there are many many orders of magnitude difference between ...

on the one hand, a single brain processing an incoming torrent of incomplete-and-sometimes-inconsistent-information in split seconds and having to make a best guesstimate of what's happening that will do for the moment,

and on the other hand billions of people with entire lifetimes to communicate, experiment, theorize, and apply all kinds of checks and balances in a long term cooperative search for the truth.

Of course the latter malfunctions in all kinds of ways too. But it's a completely different malfunction.

In any case there is really no excuse for religion existing.

[/ QUOTE ]Not even our mind is built that way? Or have I not effectively argued that point?