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  #121  
Old 10-14-2007, 07:51 PM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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The point Sam Harris made in a speech the other day about the branding of "atheist" being no good is relevant to this argument. What luckyme and I want is the universal application of skepticism and reason, not atheism. There is no society or regime in history that has ever gone bad as a result of being too reasonable or too skeptical.

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If you're truly the reasonable man you suggest you are, then you should make the effort to do a fair analysis of the successes scored by Christian countries VS non-Christian countries VS atheist countries during the past 100 years. If you do, it's game, set, match on most any metric.

But you won't.

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As far as I know, there aren't any countries which enshrine Christianity as the national religion (I might be wrong about that, but anyway there aren't any major examples).

If you just mean nations with a high percentage of devoted Christians, I think you might lose. Check out this list of countries ranked by church attendance; there are a few successful countries in the top 20 or so (Ireland, the US, Belgium, Canada, The Netherlands... if you really want to claim The Netherlands as a "Christian country"), but if you remove the ex-Communist countries from the bottom 30 or so, it's a who's who of successful countries. This suggests - shockingly enough - that it's Communism which wrecks your country, and that Christianity at best is irrelevant.

By the way, why are we restricting things to the last 100 years? Christianity shouldn't have changed in the last 2,000 years, being an eternal truth, so if Christianity is such a great foundation for a nation, shouldn't I be able to look at any period in history and find Christian nations to be virutous? But this isn't the case. Why, if I were a cynical man, I might be inclined to think this showed that (a) Christianity has nothing to do with the success of nations or that (b) Christian nations only became successful after Christianity was ameliorated a little by the use of reason and skepticism.

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Nice deflection. This wasn't about the Catholic church. You need to find some Christian philosophy in Hitler's acts. You won't. Buh bye.

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We'll get started on that just as soon as you detail how it was people demanding too much factual evidence to back up claims who were the driving force behind the Stalin and Pol Pot regimes.

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THere are certainly definitional issues. But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots. Then look at personal freedom and rights for women. Christian rooted countries are far and away in the lead here. Islam is a female's nightmare, only slightly better if male. North Korea will be found at the bottom of every metric and I doubt there's much sanctioned religion.

You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity. Why do atheists loathe this fact so very much?

Lastly, Europe's shining star, the new and perhaps only future hope, Ireland, still atttends Christian church in huge numbers. There's reproducing as well, unlike the rest of Europe where societal slow suicide is the norm.

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Is this correlation stronger or weaker when comparing white vs. non-white countries? Just wondering, you seem to be making some HUGe correlation/causation errors, just wondering what the boundaries were.
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  #122  
Old 10-14-2007, 08:10 PM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity. Why do atheists loathe this fact so very much?


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The status quo that our current position was taken from was a theist society. BUT it was ripped from the hands of theists by secular views. Theist positions only changed after the current of secular forces were pushing.
Think - slavery.
Think - women's rights
Think - democracy

Religion is a conserving force in our society ( which can have some steadying value) and at the times/places where it is the major power player things do not get changed for the better ... what would be the impetus? That they were doing it wrong, following their infallible word of god. Not going to happen.

luckmye
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  #123  
Old 10-14-2007, 09:02 PM
Hopey Hopey is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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But overall, the great ecomonic powers of today have serious Christian roots, perhaps with fading church attendance, but solid roots.

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The Mongols controlled the world's largest empire and were basically atheistic.

The Chinese will are becoming an economic superpower, and are basically atheistic.

Japan is not a Christian nation and have been extremely successful economically by any measure.

The Muslims successfully defended the Middle East from the Crusaders for hundreds of years, and had some of the most advanced cities in the world.

Correlation is not causation.
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  #124  
Old 10-14-2007, 09:12 PM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion


And you forgot to mention that we probably owe more to greece and the roman empire than christianity as far as that prosperity thing goes.
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  #125  
Old 10-14-2007, 09:49 PM
RustedCorpse RustedCorpse is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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You can parse it and spin it as your agenda warrants, but the easiest living is found under the shade tree of Christianity.

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I think there might be some witches and inquisition victims who would disagree. But maybe trying to stay alive is an agenda?




To OP:

Some Christians listen.

A lot of religious people just plod through half heartily accepting what they've been taught. Forcing them to confront fallacies and logic, over and over, time and time again, DOES wear them down.

It did me.
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  #126  
Old 10-15-2007, 02:49 AM
WiiiiiiMan WiiiiiiMan is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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I debate religion sometimes and my main motive is usually to be mean. I cannot think of another subject where I can pawn someone to a ridiculous extent as much as religion. Its like arguing with a child who thinks Santa Clause exists. People who believe in Christianity aren't going to change their mind when you present logic reasoning. If they were interested in logical reasoning, they wouldn't be Christians. If person makes it past the age of eight-teen and there aren't already huge doubts in their mind of Jesus's existence, there is nothing you can do.

So shouldn't we find something more interesting to discuss regardless of the ego boost it gives us to rip the zealots?

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Debating people who are not scientifically inclined when your just spitting out scientific terms or saying this proves this, etc is pretty much cowardice.

Try to debate someone who can scientifically backup his faith in scriptures is a whole different things.

Well you wouldn't do it. And yes, as you said, no matter how much truth you hear, your not going to change your mind.

Your no different then anybody that runs from truths and facts.

Obviously we can't understand things though that require no limit to space and time, and obviously we are bound by both.

I am sure their are lots of leaps of faith you take that you think are facts.

Whole point is to be logical and rational enough to see how science upholds writings in some scriptures, but only after these were written basically confirming what has been written or translated.


Then again, regardless of the truth of these things and how they are clearly stated, you most likely won't change your current mind on how you see things, only enhancing that position. It's only human though, your bound by the same laws as me in our capacity to fully understand the mysteries of the universe. But the things we can understand, if you seek for the truths with an open mind you got a better shot of seeing the brilliant light that started this whole universe.

KEYWORD- Open Mind.

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It's a good thing that you don't put yourself in a conversation with people who have logical reasoning for believing in the scriptures thats scientifically backed up .

But like you think about these darn Christians, its in one ear and out the other, it doesn't matter really what anyone says.

Your set in your ways unless God presented himself to you right?

So it really doesn't matter what these little truths are and how they have been scientifically proven accurate.

And it's a wonder, why you never will.

Maybe it's cause your afraid, or you just don't care or your mind is already made up.

Good thing scientist don't view things like this, or how could we keep discovering new things and learning the many more marvels of the universe.

Sigh for you.

Cheers to rationality and logic.

And sigh for the effects of uncertainty on some people and the lack of the effects of truth on others.
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  #127  
Old 10-15-2007, 03:12 AM
xxThe_Lebowskixx xxThe_Lebowskixx is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

haha
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  #128  
Old 10-15-2007, 03:26 AM
WiiiiiiMan WiiiiiiMan is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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haha

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I'll take that as a compliment. LOL...

Thanks for skimming through my rant.

Feel free to load it up in the context machine and spin that baby...........
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  #129  
Old 10-15-2007, 09:07 AM
Splendour Splendour is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

There's so much misinterpretation of history and history taken out of context in this thread.

One person stated that a skeptic nation has a better chance of functioning than a Christian nation....He needs to check out the most liberal republic of all time...the rise and fall of the Weimar Republic...

Then we've got Hopey's little laundry list...First of all Hopey the Mongols weren't atheists...they believed in multiple gods, goddesses and demons and had an extremely high number of taboo practices...They managed to seize power thru their superior military tactics. i.e. horsepower...Atheism had nothing to do with their successful conquers...
The Japanese aren't Atheists either...They are a combination of Shinto/Buddhist for the most part. They marry Shinto and they bury Buddhist. A merciful country known as the United States of America bailed Japan out by helping to rebuild them after WWII...I daresay you could go to Japan today and find Japanese amazed at Americans doing this since Japan never handled any surrendering enemies in such a gentle fashion in their whole history prior to WWII...take a look at the Bataan Death march or how warring Shogunate factions handled conquered enemies...Not to mention how the U.S. bailed out Germany following WWII through the generosity of the Marshall Plan...
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  #130  
Old 10-15-2007, 09:16 AM
Alex-db Alex-db is offline
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Default Re: why does this forum care so much about religion

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Atheist don't share an ideology or a basis for it with any specific or general atheistic wrongdoer.


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Saying it doesn't make it so. To not choose is a choice. To eschew a Christian society is to choose the chaos that lies in the direction of a secular society. It may not be chaotic today and Pol Pot may not self-generate, but the potential is greatly increased.

I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly Christian* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to Stalin and Mao, or even Pol Pot.

* Hitler is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial Christian philosophy guiding his action.

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I know this is simple and probably already mentioned, but your post above obviously implies the following irony:

"I'm trying to think of the most foul, doubtlessly ATHEIST* world leader in the last century. Whoever gets the nod, he'll be small beer next to etc etc.

* Pol Pot is unacceptable for this 'honor'. It's difficult to point to any substantial ATHEIST philosophy guiding his action. "
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