Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?

[Boise123]

Here is a pretty good article regarding rebuy strtegy. http://tourneyacticles.wordpress.com...y-by-aawwnutz/

[jay_shark]

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Is this hard to do? I was thinking of playing the $3 re-buy 25K guarantee a few times, but my strategy is not to re-buy, as i only have a small BR.
All i have to do is get in the top 500ish then i will get like $21. It sounds like a good deal to me, and i might even get lucky and make it deep once or twice, that would be great for my BR.
But, will i have to build my stack so big that I'm better of playing regular tourneys?

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Bad idea. You're at a huge disadvantage if your intent is to not rebuy.

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This is true if you're a winning player .

In general the amount of times you need to re-buy really depends on your relative skill to the field . A player with a roi of 100% should re-buy ~ twice as often as the average player . At some point , the Law of Diminishing Returns asserts that it becomes incorrect to re-buy an exorbitant amount . If you're a marginally profitable player (roi = 5%) , then it may only be correct for you to re-buy once .

[pzhon]

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Methinks you shouldn't be playing poker or doing any other form of gambling for money, given that $9 is a serious bankroll hit and $21 "sounds like a good deal"

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Do you realize that this is the beginners forum?

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No, I hit my head and thought I was replying in the High Stakes forum.


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It looks that way.

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It is perfectly reasonable to start playing for pennies (e.g., playing NL $2, or $0.02-$0.04 limit). Should microstakes players all quit until they are willing to play for stakes you deem meaningful?

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First, don't assume you know what I was talking about. Where did I ever say that playing micro limits was not "meaningful" ?

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I responded to what you said. If you meant something other than common, ugly, unhealthy stakes-snobbery, maybe you should have said something else.

For someone playing NL $2, dropping 4.5 buy-ins may be a serious bankroll hit. For someone playing $0.02-$0.04 limit, dropping over 100 BB may be a serious bankroll hit. You said if losing $9 is a serious hit to your bankroll you should not play poker for money. I disagree.

I went from playing $0.01-$0.02 limit with $5 designated for poker to crushing NL $100 with a 5 figure poker bankroll in under one year. I still remember beating myself up for calling a massive overbet of $1 with QQ when I should have known better (I had notes on that opponent), even though I've since posted big blinds 1000 times as large. Valuable lessons can be learned while building a bankroll from pocket change.

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A lot of players decide to work up from a $50 deposit. Along the way, it is normal at some point to have the bankroll to play tournaments for $3, but not tournaments with a buy-in of $10.

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Are you telling me that a $50 bankroll allows players to play $3 tourneys? Much less, $3 rebuy tourneys where he can't afford to rebuy a few times?

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No. I never said that. I said that along the way, at some point a player is likely to have the bankroll to play $3 tournaments, but not $10 tournaments. That might happen with a bankroll of $100, or $600, depending on the player's skill level and the size of the tournaments and just how soft they are, but it's not a surprise when it happens. The response should not be to stop playing poker for money when a player says he feels comfortable paying $3 to play a tournament, and not $9, or however much it will cost to play the rebuy. Similarly, if someone is comfortably bankrolled for NL $10 but not NL $25, it's fine to play NL $10, even though the player might win more money per hand at NL $25.

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Maybe I misinterpreted the OP's trepidation, but he sounds severely under-bankrolled and/or should not be playing at the level that he's talking about, given his cost concerns.

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Maybe he is underbankrolled. However, the exact same post could be made by someone who is properly bankrolled for $3 tournaments, who is wondering about $3 rebuy tournaments.

[Lottery Larry]

I'll be sending you a PM this weekend, to take this spat offline.

redandblue, if you could post your poker bankroll, that would possibly correct some misassumptions that I made, in my original reply.

[mb6tour]

I'm a total beginner, so ignore my post.

I think if your plan is to play ANY rebuy tournament you should have at the very least enough for 2 full buy-ins ($6 in this case) + $ for add-on. It doens't sound very ugly to play without rebuying but you have to realize that you'll probably face one of the 2 cases:

1 crazy table where people go for multi-way allin preflop with any2 broadway any pair any suited connector any suited gap connector etc, aka DONATION table

2 misclick table where people play rebuys like theyre freezeouts (what u plan on doing) and they are all waiting for premos to go for it.

Let's analyse those both alone & them I'll put it altogether:

case 1: you're in the perfect spot for building a big stack, people just shove a lot multi-way, u can even triple or quadruple up in one hand. So, what's wrong? Your equity goes to bustoville my dear. Your premo AA will be crushed by 86s all day long. And then what? You'll quit the tournament? There are still free chips as u have never seen and you'll quit because u won't rebuy? Doesn't sound like a good strategy to me.

case 2: needless to say, it'll be very hard to get action with ur premo if the others are waiting for it themselves.

Summary: To be able to fully appreciate the rebuy advantages you need to REBUY.

Got it?

[raze]

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Summary: To be able to fully appreciate the rebuy advantages you need to REBUY.


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Absolutely 100%. When you decide to play a rebuy tourney without making any rebuys, you're reducing your profitability, so you would be better off to play a freeze-out, or a rebuy tourney (with rebuys) of a size that is accommodated by your bankroll.

[pzhon]

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Summary: To be able to fully appreciate the rebuy advantages you need to REBUY.


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Absolutely 100%.


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Ok, and to make the most money playing NLHE, you need to play games with a big blind that is at least $100. Anything else is wasting your $500/hour advantage...unless you don't have the skills or the bankroll to play for those stakes.

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When you decide to play a rebuy tourney without making any rebuys, you're reducing your profitability,


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Probably, and you are also reducing your risk. I don't care about risking $3 or $300, but others might.

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so you would be better off to play a freeze-out, or a rebuy tourney (with rebuys) of a size that is accommodated by your bankroll.

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First, that doesn't follow. If you have to choose between them, it might be better to play a $3 rebuy tournament, buying in once, than a normal $3 tournament. It also may not be better or possible to find a smaller rebuy tournament.

Second, you usually don't have to choose between them (online). You can treat each multitable tournament as a decision to play or not.

Bankroll management is about identifying which +E$ gambles are too risky, and which are acceptable risks. If you have the skills, and the bankroll, then buy in, rebuy immediately, rebuy whenever you bust out, and add on. If your have the skills and a smaller bankroll, the add-on may not be worth the risk, and you might only want to rebuy when you bust out early in the rebuy period.

You get the most profit for the variance on your initial buy-in. In fact, that initial buy-in may be better than buying into a normal tournament with the same prize pool, since the play is particularly bad in rebuy tournaments.

[Lottery Larry]

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You get the most profit for the variance on your initial buy-in. In fact, that initial buy-in may be better than buying into a normal tournament with the same prize pool, since the play is particularly bad in rebuy tournaments.

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How much does the wider variance, caused the the rebuy structure and the "particularly bad" play you mentioned, affect this initial buy-in profit?

Or do we assume you've factored that in already, based on the $3 freezeout comparison, when stating that $3 rebuy with no rebuy plan is most profitable?

[pzhon]

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You get the most profit for the variance on your initial buy-in. In fact, that initial buy-in may be better than buying into a normal tournament with the same prize pool, since the play is particularly bad in rebuy tournaments.

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How much does the wider variance, caused the the rebuy structure and the "particularly bad" play you mentioned, affect this initial buy-in profit?

Or do we assume you've factored that in already, based on the $3 freezeout comparison, when stating that $3 rebuy with no rebuy plan is most profitable?

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I said, "with the same prize pool." Normally, the standard deviation per tournament increases with the number of players, and to a much lesser extent, with your advantage. In a rebuy tournament, if you buy in once, the effective number of players is the total number of buy-ins, rebuys, and add-ons, assuming those are all the same size.

It's a common assertion, in almost every form of poker, that worse play by your opponents causes greater variance. That's the fall back position for why bad play is supposed to hurt you after it is pointed out that with rare exceptions, your expected value increases when your opponents make mistakes. In some situations, the variance is lower, and in some it is higher, but even when it is higher, the added risk is usually safer than playing normal poker, so it decreases your bankroll requirements. Having a much higher ROI does increase your standard deviation slightly in multitable tournaments, e.g., someone with a ROI of 50% in a 200 player tournament may have a standard deviation 20% higher than someone with a ROI of 10%. However, the net effect is to decrease the bankroll requirements sharply.

[raze]

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Ok, and to make the most money playing NLHE, you need to play games with a big blind that is at least $100. Anything else is wasting your $500/hour advantage...unless you don't have the skills or the bankroll to play for those stakes.


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I don't follow [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]