Atkins Diet - Lets Discuss Pros/Cons/Experiences

[jah7_fsu1]

guids/thremp: Those studies were from another board where a guy did a bunch of looking at studies trying to figure out if high GI was needed post-workout. I'm highly active on that board and it is a point of conflict to say the least obviously. A ton of other studies were presented after that, with some people in favor of low GI and some in favor of high GI post-workout.

I'm not arguing high GI carbs post-workout aren't effective, I'm saying is there a significant difference in carb type post-workout? The argument isn't whether or not it is effective, it's can low GI carbs be as effective and you can avoid the blood sugar spike which may or may not be needed.


I'm not backpedaling, I'm trying to spark a discussion. I'm wondering about the neccessity of using our carbs in this manner if we are on a low-carb diet.

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You dont really know how the body works directly after a workout, so there is no point in me arguing with you, so Im not going to. Do some research on it, get at least a basic understanding of what happens in regards to glycogen stores, insulin, etc after a workout, and get back to me. But once you do, you wont need too because you will understand why you are wrong.

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Trust me I think I have a pretty good understanding of stuff like what happens after a workout. I've done enough research on my own/had enough boring classes on subjects like this. Instead of just telling me I don't know anything about anything, please give me some good scientific reasons why you think a huge insulin spike is neccessary post-workout. Also please tell me why if we're on a low carb diet especially we would want our one carb timing to be of such a quick acting nature? That is what I'm getting at. I don't think anyone gains anything out of you saying, wow that is wrong without no discussion or evidence to the contrary.

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
guids/thremp: Those studies were from another board where a guy did a bunch of looking at studies trying to figure out if high GI was needed post-workout. I'm highly active on that board and it is a point of conflict to say the least obviously. A ton of other studies were presented after that, with some people in favor of low GI and some in favor of high GI post-workout.

I'm not arguing high GI carbs post-workout aren't effective, I'm saying is there a significant difference in carb type post-workout? The argument isn't whether or not it is effective, it's can low GI carbs be as effective and you can avoid the blood sugar spike which may or may not be needed.


I'm not backpedaling, I'm trying to spark a discussion. I'm wondering about the neccessity of using our carbs in this manner if we are on a low-carb diet.

[ QUOTE ]
You dont really know how the body works directly after a workout, so there is no point in me arguing with you, so Im not going to. Do some research on it, get at least a basic understanding of what happens in regards to glycogen stores, insulin, etc after a workout, and get back to me. But once you do, you wont need too because you will understand why you are wrong.

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Trust me I think I have a pretty good understanding of stuff like what happens after a workout. I've done enough research on my own/had enough boring classes on subjects like this. Instead of just telling me I don't know anything about anything, please give me some good scientific reasons why you think a huge insulin spike is neccessary post-workout. Also please tell me why if we're on a low carb diet especially we would want our one carb timing to be of such a quick acting nature? That is what I'm getting at. I don't think anyone gains anything out of you saying, wow that is wrong without no discussion or evidence to the contrary.

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Bodybuilders will inject up to 10 i.u. of quick-acting synthetic insulin following meals containing starchy carbohydrates and protein, but little fat, in an attempt to 'force feed' nutrients necessary for growth into skeletal muscle, whilst preventing growth of adipocytes. This may be done up to 4 times each day, following meals, for a total usage of 40iu of synthetic insulin / day. However there have been reports of substantially heavier usage, amongst even 'recreational' bodybuilders.


This is the dumb way for me to explain it, I could cite reference and whatever, but this is basic stuff imo. Insulin is very anabolic when used right, some people dont want to be stupid and inject synthetic insulin, so they manipulate it with postworkout nutrition. you dont get that big insulin spike with slow action carbs.

[thirddan]

im currently reading nutrient timing and it, as well as berardi, suggest a fast acting carb source directly post workout followed by a starchy carb meal w/ slower carbs about an hour or so later...both accompanied by protein obv...the slower acting carb meal is the oatmeal/whole wheat food/fruit carb that continues the insulin spike and promotes anabolism (sp?)...

jah, what is the other forum you read?

[jah7_fsu1]

Guids: I USE high GI carbs postworkout myself, I always have. Right now all the research/other posts I'm looking at are making me question just how big of a difference this actually makes. No "real" studies have really examined the two head on, and it seems that a lot of the "need to force nutrients in as fast as possible" might not be neccessary. ESPECIALLY if we are trying to minimize fat gain. I'm wondering if someone on an Atkins or low carb diet wouldn't have greater success using slower carb sources post-workout. Basically....is it a neccessary risk? Bodybuilders injecting themselves isn't enough for me, sorry.

I've already stated how I think a lot of supplement developers are going to start using a mix of slow and fast acting carbs in their post-workout shakes. The more I read and research the more I'm asking do we need to be drowning ourselves in sugar post-workout? Is the sharp spike neccessary? After all due to active transport we know only a certain amount of glucose can enter a cell at one time. So how much sense does it make to flood with glucose? I think a more sustained release is going to be benefical in this instance the more I read up on it.




Third: I read a ton of other forums, mainly anabolic minds, M&M, Body Recomp, JP Fitness, etc.

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
Guids: I USE high GI carbs postworkout myself, I always have. Right now all the research/other posts I'm looking at are making me question just how big of a difference this actually makes. No "real" studies have really examined the two head on, and it seems that a lot of the "need to force nutrients in as fast as possible" might not be neccessary. ESPECIALLY if we are trying to minimize fat gain. I'm wondering if someone on an Atkins or low carb diet wouldn't have greater success using slower carb sources post-workout. Basically....is it a neccessary risk? Bodybuilders injecting themselves isn't enough for me, sorry.

I've already stated how I think a lot of supplement developers are going to start using a mix of slow and fast acting carbs in their post-workout shakes. The more I read and research the more I'm asking do we need to be drowning ourselves in sugar post-workout? Is the sharp spike neccessary? After all due to active transport we know only a certain amount of glucose can enter a cell at one time. So how much sense does it make to flood with glucose? I think a more sustained release is going to be benefical in this instance the more I read up on it.




Third: I read a ton of other forums, mainly anabolic minds, M&M, Body Recomp, JP Fitness, etc.

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bodybuilders injecting insulin IS enough, or should be enough for you if you have any knowlege of physiology. There is a reason they do it, and it can be found in any high school biology book. In general fat gain is cals in v cals out, you arent going to store fat by eatimng high GI carbs, what you are doing is refining your diet to get the most out of what little carbs you do eat, and staying anabolic longer, sparing muscle. If you really think that you will store fat, or there is even a risk of it, when you are on a solid low cal, low carb diet, you dont understand anything about nutrition to begin with, and I dont have the time to help you.

[skunkworks]

Not sure if this is relevant, but there is a difference between glucose and insulin. Blood glucose levels are spiked to increase insulin response PWO, but there are some foods that produce a disproportionate insulin response. Just another thing to think about.

[jah7_fsu1]

[ QUOTE ]
bodybuilders injecting insulin IS enough, or should be enough for you if you have any knowlege of physiology. There is a reason they do it, and it can be found in any high school biology book. In general fat gain is cals in v cals out, you arent going to store fat by eatimng high GI carbs, what you are doing is refining your diet to get the most out of what little carbs you do eat, and staying anabolic longer, sparing muscle. If you really think that you will store fat, or there is even a risk of it, when you are on a solid low cal, low carb diet, you dont understand anything about nutrition to begin with, and I dont have the time to help you.

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I have a definite knowledge of physiology. I'm just not convinced based on research that high GI carbs are that important post-workout. I use them and always have (because it seemed the general thing to do), but I believe evidence is showing that this isn't as important as we have previously thought. You aren't "staying" anabolic longer by having a quick intake of carbohydrates, if anything I'd argue the opposite based on active transport. Not sure where you are getting this idea from. My current thinking/reading is making me think more and more that a mix or steady supply of carbs is going to be more benefical than a hurried rush of them. I haven't seen evidence to the contrary (largely because no studies exist) yet.

I'm still going to use high GI carbs post-workout, I'm just presenting a different viewpoint. Pre-workout nutrition is more important than post-workout nutrition anyways and has been evidenced by numerous studies. I will continue looking at studies/researching the topic.

[jah7_fsu1]

Quids: I suggest you look at some of the studies another guy found in a different thread instead of just saying "OMG, bodybuilder do this."

"The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that DOES NOT REQUIRE the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes."

I'm by no means saying that I think high GI carbs are worthless or unneccessary, merely that a discussion has been taking place and information has been looked at over the last few years that may be pointing to them not being as neccessary as once thought. As I've said like 15 times now, I think some of this evidence is the reason we are seeing cutting edge supplement companies (Avant, DS, etc.) start to put mixes in their post-workout drinks.

[jah7_fsu1]

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Hrm... Where was I... Ah. WMS... Yes, it looks very interesting a main reason people might not use it is due to the debatable nature of its efficacy and price. It seems somewhere between 2x-4x the cost of dextrose for a marginal benefit at best. I have no looked through all the threads intently (There a lot of information about the insulin question which I think is pretty standard and easily answered again, if you read your sources it'd make for a much more solid argument). I did not see any comps of insulin response or even glycemic index which I think would be much better to determine usage than "feel" and some half-crocked studies done by loosely associated research firms.

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Yeah, WMS (Vitargo) is interesting to say the least.
WMS is getting a lot of attention lately because of its osmolality. It has a molecular weight, which results in it being absorbed very quickly. Supposedly it is supposed to take other nutrients along with it quickly. Also, it IS a complex carb which people don't seem to realize. Glucose readings based on "brotelligence" have shown much less impact on blood glucose levels, but this is just from some friends who have done their own testing with it with their own BG meters. It is pricey and I haven't experimented with it enough to notice any differences yet. It seems to have almost an NO supplement type effect though from my minimal experiences, although I have no clue why this would be.

[Thremp]

jah7,

Please rejoin the anabolic properties of insulin, the uptake of muscle glycogen with a high IR card PWO, and you're ridiculous claim of fat gain.

On the WMS topic, until someone can produce something better than "placebo effect" I'd say the jury is still out. Which is funny since above you tout it as a clear preference to dextrose which has a pretty well documented IR response etc and has been in use widespread for 5x+ as long as WMS.

Please don't make assinine arguments for the sake of it. Next I expect to see a thread defending split workouts for beginners.