Interesting turn spot IP on QQJJ board vs LAGTAG

Oink · #1 11-26-2007, 05:01 PM

Villain is 35/25 LAGTAG after 71 hands

I lost my old db so I have been playing a lot more with him. Dont have any notes which means he hasnt done anything I consider dumb or extraordinary when against me.

In other words, he seems to be pretty good postflop

Party Poker Mid Stakes Hold'em (6 handed) Party Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.83 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ???

I dont think he has a Q or J very often. But to be honest I dont know. Most will pop those on the flop but he might realize I know that and get trixxy.

Afterwards I also realized that betting might get him to fold a fd

Also, if he has like A5 I have 55% eq with my 4 out freeroller.

I am also sure if he got there with Kx he is calling down.

Anyhoo. I thought this was an interesting spot

DeathDonkey · #2 11-26-2007, 05:09 PM

Its way less interesting if you fold preflop, but that's what I'd do [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

rzk · #3 11-26-2007, 05:15 PM

with your assumptions this looks like a clear bet to me. but i might be too sleepy to be thinking straight.

Oink · #4 11-26-2007, 05:16 PM

If I agree to never 3-bet ATo there again can I get your feedback on turnplay?

nit [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

numbnuts007 · #5 11-26-2007, 05:33 PM

I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

As for turn play, this looks like a great spot to check behind. There is a good chance that we are ahead and I would hate getting blown off the best hand. He seems likely to bet alot of river cards if we check through and we will be able to pick up a bet there. If he is on a fd there is a good chance that he would have c/r the flop or he might be waiting for the turn. I really like a check behind here.

DeathDonkey · #6 11-26-2007, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good LAGTAGs (which we are assuming villain is) are expanding their range a lot more in late position than in early position.

Oinkers:

pros to betting: he could call down with a worse hand or chop that we are freerolling against, it discourages him from peeling lightly against us from a metagame POV, he could CR bluff and we are never folding.

cons to betting: he could fold a hand that would pay off on the river (king high), he could fold a hand that would bluff the river (missed draw or small pair), he could value town us with a slowplayed hand.

I feel that in general, against such LAGTAGs, I like to be able to check the turn and not get totally exploited, because my hand just isn't that good that often. Here we have a pretty strong chance of holding up if our hand is best (worst case is he has 12 outs with a king high flush draw I think, but that's clearly not common). I like situations where I can check with the strongest of my weak hands (if that makes any sense) because it protects me from having nasty decisions when I am checking with my weakest of my weak hands.

I would check here.

-DeathDonkey

numbnuts007 · #7 11-26-2007, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good LAGTAGs (which we are assuming villain is) are expanding their range a lot more in late position than in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but this guy doesn't need to be a total spaz for 3 betting ATo to be correct. I think if villian were an unknown, 3 betting with AJo would be good. Since we know he is at least a little looser than the average bear, I think it's probably alright to open up with ATo, but that's as low as i'd limbo against all but the craziest UTG raiser, A9o is a quick muck.

vmacosta · #8 11-26-2007, 07:38 PM

Assuming he does the normal lagtag thing and c/r's the flop with a flushdraw or oesd, the only hands you want him to fold is another A. And that's not gonna happen.

So the question remains: if he has a PP, will he bluff the river more often than catch a 2-outer? The answer is yes imo, so I'd check. If he never tries to bluff you like some nitty tags then I would bet.

vmacosta · #9 11-26-2007, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think 3 betting pf is fine, his range seems to be wide enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good LAGTAGs (which we are assuming villain is) are expanding their range a lot more in late position than in early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but this guy doesn't need to be a total spaz for 3 betting ATo to be correct. I think if villian were an unknown, 3 betting with AJo would be good. Since we know he is at least a little looser than the average bear, I think it's probably alright to open up with ATo, but that's as low as i'd limbo against all but the craziest UTG raiser, A9o is a quick muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

as a default for typical 10/20 game, 3-betting here is fine imo. How much of an edge do you people require?!

OGGambler · #10 11-26-2007, 08:18 PM

IMO the 3-bet is good in this spot preflop. For the turn I like a check. A c/r on the turn can get pretty nasty and we are not folding against this guy. But since he has played with you before, if we did bet the turn and he did put in the raise knowing your not folding you may need to keep this in mind also.