My Casino AZ Problem....

[*TT*]

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You think that you need 500BB to take a shot at the 20/40? I was planning on taking a couple shots at ~250BB (though, mostly to get my face recognized and not get shots taken at me constantly when I start playing it regularly).

-d

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In that game, yes you need 500 or so BB. Its a 1/2 kill game and its plays very wild, these games tend to be high variance.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Doesn't taking a shot, by definition, not require a full bankroll? I think Hass has pretty much described exactly what taking a shot entails. As long as you set aside enough to drop back down with a solid bankroll nothing catastrophic can happen and there is a lot of upside.

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Re-read the full thread. This has already been covered.

[HOWMANY]

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patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60).

PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Agree with your point, but I think it's completely insane to wait until you have 500BB for a game this level when there is a regular game at the level immediately below it to rebuild at. 300BB should be more than sufficient if you are a winning player and I think taking a small shot when you've got 200BB couldn't be all that bad. I'm a nit, so I wouldn't do that, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be bad.

Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets.

OP: I know exactly how you feel. I played 8/16 for what felt like forever, partially because the 20/40 game at this casino almost never went and I'm a wimp. However I think having a 15/30 between would not be good. From personal experience having games at close levels is not good at all. When I played 8/16 what would often happen on weekdays is that the 8/16 players would settle into a 4/8 game and the floor wouldn't want to break a 4/8 to start an 8/16 and the players wouldn't always want to get up from the 4/8. The result is that the game wouldn't even start many days and the result of that is the people like me that do not want to play lower than 8/16 don't waste their time going to the casino any more and then the game just plain never goes any more and the casino has a million 3/6 games and a couple 4/8 games. I could write another rant about having 3/6 and 4/8 in the same casino, but since I don't play 8/16 any more it doesn't matter that much.

It might suck not being able to move up faster, but it will benefit you in the long run to have a consistent 8/16 or 20/40 game to play than a spotty 8/16, 15/30 and 20/40 that all leech off each other.

[Hass]

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Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets.

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I agree, but of course this is givin you have the ability to move down and not chase losses.

[*TT*]

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patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60).

PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Agree with your point, but I think it's completely insane to wait until you have 500BB for a game this level when there is a regular game at the level immediately below it to rebuild at. 300BB should be more than sufficient if you are a winning player and I think taking a small shot when you've got 200BB couldn't be all that bad. I'm a nit, so I wouldn't do that, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be bad.

Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets.

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I assume you haven't played in this specific game at this casino before... its very juicy but its also very high variance. Your being blinded by the 20/40 limit, think of this game as a 30/60 limit game that sometimes goes down to 20/40 - because it often plays like this.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Nate.]

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patience grasshopper. Everything you told us shows that you don't have the bankroll to play 20/40 yet. How many big bets do you have in your roll for 20/40? You shouldn't step foot near that game until you have 20k at a very minimum (its a 1/2 kill game, you will often be playing relative stakes of 30/60).

PS: This really isn't a B&M question, this is a general Hold'em topic. It doesn't matter if your playing live or on line variance, win rate, bankroll, and standard deviation issues are the same.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Agree with your point, but I think it's completely insane to wait until you have 500BB for a game this level when there is a regular game at the level immediately below it to rebuild at. 300BB should be more than sufficient if you are a winning player and I think taking a small shot when you've got 200BB couldn't be all that bad. I'm a nit, so I wouldn't do that, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be bad.

Online I definitely agree, but live it seems nuts to wait till you've got 500 bets.

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I assume you haven't played in this specific game at this casino before... its very juicy but its also very high variance. Your being blinded by the 20/40 limit, think of this game as a 30/60 limit game that sometimes goes down to 20/40 - because it often plays like this.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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TT --

When you played the CAZ game, was it a two-in-a-row kill rule? That structure prevents almost all long stretches of kill pots.

I think a player executing a careful shot could do with less risk than you imagine. It is too often overlooked that the probability of certain size downswings decreases dramatically with increases in winrate. And the CAZ 20-40 can breed some very high true winrates.

My hundreds of hours in the game don't make for a huge sample, and I've had a $2k downswing and some smaller ones, but I certainly wouldn't be particularly reluctant to take a shot at the CAZ game.

--Nate

[*TT*]

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TT --

When you played the CAZ game, was it a two-in-a-row kill rule? That structure prevents almost all long stretches of kill pots.

I think a player executing a careful shot could do with less risk than you imagine. It is too often overlooked that the probability of certain size downswings decreases dramatically with increases in winrate. And the CAZ 20-40 can breed some very high true winrates.

My hundreds of hours in the game don't make for a huge sample, and I've had a $2k downswing and some smaller ones, but I certainly wouldn't be particularly reluctant to take a shot at the CAZ game.

--Nate

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It is a leg up, followed by a kill. I've been playing in that game for a year and 1/2 now (almost 2 years actually). For a safe bankroll I honestly suggest 500BB. However you can survive with a significantly greater risk of ruin with something like 300BB - but its not the optimal choice for event the best players due to the inherent variance that should be expected in this game.

Its also important to note that when the kill pots occur the local player tenancy is to protect his or her kill at all costs, making for some ridiculously huge pots and tremendous possibility for suckouts of course - which I love [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Howard Beale]

A few remarks:

You can absolutely forget about CAZ spreading 15-30 HE. They took the position from day 1 that they wouldn't do it, ever. For a while we had 15 stud and, for a short while, 15 0/8 but that's it. There was even a 20 mix for a short while but only the better multi-game players sat in it so it was a waste of time for everybody in it.

The horrible 10-20 was killed off by the 8-16 not by the 5-150 ~2 years ago and I was very glad of it. A 2/4 chip game is always the worst game in the house unless it's the biggest game being spread. The poster who suggested having it played with blue $2 chips has the right idea but CAZ won't do it. The room is filled up most nights and they aren't going to fix what isn't broken and for that reason they won't do a 12/24 either, imo.

Hass:

When you say 'take a shot' I'd bet you meant to give it only a play or 3 to see how you did and drop back down if your results were bad or if you felt out-classed and that you were in above your head skill-wise (btw folks, he plays a pretty good game and doesn't lose his head). I think that taking these kind of 'shots' are worthwhile if a player has the discipline to drop back down right away if he knows he should. Also, the 40 game is very often a way better game than the 20. There has been an influx from out of the blue of decent new players in the 20 game and I look at the 40 and console myself that I'll be in it w/i a year.

OP:

As important as having a sufficient BR is if you dropped an entire month's 8-16 profit in a couple of plays in the 20 game you have to ask yourself if you're playing at a level sufficient to beat the game not whether or not your BR is big enough.

TT:

You're right that the game plays bigger than most 20's, thank goodness. To those who come out to CAZ to play it be prepared for what is often (not always) a slug-fest.