FW 20/40

[sleepyjoeyt]

Played Foxwoods Saturday afternoon / evening 20/40 when the following hand came up.

Terrible older asian (TOA) limps in UTG, Nicky M limps, I limp on the button with 10 9 (probably not a hand I should limp on the button with but I'm getting hit with the deck and I want to play pots with TOA). Blinds come along - 5-handed to the flop.

Flop is J 8 4 (two of one suit - spades I think). 3 checks to Nicky, who bets. I call as do 2 others (including TOA).

River is a 7 (not the flush card). 2 checks to Nicky who bets. I just call, hoping to get the others to call as well. To be honest I don't even remember if they called or not but my guess is one call and one fold.

river is a useless card (no spade and no paired board). Checked to Nicky who bets, I raise, anyone who was in the hand folds and Nicky calls. I take it down.

Nicky lays into me that he can't understand how I didn't raise the turn. He tells me that he had a set and that I should have raised the turn.

Given that there was no preflop raise and the pot wasn't that large how much of a mistake is it not to raise the turn?

I think Nick is one of the best (if not the best) regular in this game and I know that he can lay down his hand to my raise on the turn in many situations (not this one in particular with his set but I had no way of knowing how strong he was) so my thinking was that if he had a decent hand he would lay down to my raise and the others would have certainly folded if I had made it $80 on the turn so I would have made no more money.

If one of the other two in this hand called the turn then I think I made another $120 by not raising the turn.

All comments appreciated.

[ProfessorBen]

Hand is played fine depending on the 2 callers. I think it's possible to raise the turn because of the flush draw that's on the flop and the fact that one of the callers on the flop is terrible. However, he is just as likely to call 2 with his flush draw as he is 1 bet with something terrible like A9/T6/K4, so I don't mind going for overcalls there.

[ackid]

Fold preflop, Raise turn

[WMB]

I agree with your line of thinking against Nick. If you knew he had a set, oviously you would raise the turn, but as the hand played out his most likely hand would be a jack which he definately would have folded on the turn to a raise. You played it fine and got max value out of it.

[jba]

I think it's a crime not to raise the turn with the flush out there and a terrible player.

i think nicky's preflop call is worse though.

[esspo]

Pre-flop call is fine IF you play well post flop. From this hand it doesn't look like you meet that criteria.

A turn raise is laughably easy. Going for overcalls is a concept to be applied to river betting situations. The way you played it you win the minimum from the people who are drawing against you when they mniss and lose the maximum when they hit.

[Fnord]

"Sorry Nicky, I play bad."

[sleepyjoeyt]

I would really like some responses to the "esspo" comment, especially from regulars in that game.

[Barry]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Nick is one of the best (if not the best) regular in this game and I know that he can lay down his hand to my raise on the turn in many situations (not this one in particular with his set but I had no way of knowing how strong he was) so my thinking was that if he had a decent hand he would lay down to my raise and the others would have certainly folded if I had made it $80 on the turn so I would have made no more money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nicky isn't the guy that you want to extract value from there; it's the other folks drawing to whatever they have (a J) or are drawing to, flushs, 2 pairs etc. that are coming along for 1 bet or 3 on the turn. Raise that turn all day.

[sleepyjoeyt]

I guess my fear is that they will wake up to an $80 bet and call, whereas they seem to stupidly call along for the $40. Especially TOA who calls with any pair or draw for $40 but I believe would fold when faced with $80.

Not to mention the idea that one of the first two people who checked (TOA and other caller) could be checkraising Nicky on the turn, which would then come around to me again when I could make it $120. I thought there would be at least a small chance that would happen.

Anyways I guess I thought that if I raised to $80 both calling stations would fold and Nicky might fold if he didn't have a huge hand.

IF dcb777, jkamowitz, and others who play this game all agree that I have to raise the turn I'll go with it but it just seems like I want each of those limpers to throw in the $40 as opposed to folding to the $80.

I'm not trying to get too involved with Nick.