Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself

Courtesy Flush · #1 09-17-2007, 02:27 PM

I was playing at Oceans 11 last night when the following situation arose. I had two spewtards to my left who loved to raise trash pre-flop, so I limp/shoved with AQc and they both called me with 88 and K8. I missed the board and some old people at the other end of the table praised the 88 and commented on how "the best hand won." I know I shouldn't even say a word here, but I couldn't help myself and interjected that my hand was in fact best in that scenario. They all argued with me of course, but finally conceeded that I was ahead %-wise while still maintaining that 88 was the "best hand." I conintued to insist that AQc was the best hand because of the %, but they all agreed that 88 was "best" because of it's immediate ranking against AQ. This is when I realized we had different definitions of what makes the "best hand." I see where they are coming from, but it just doesn't seem right to me to label a hand that's behind as "best."

So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

ReptileHouse · #2 09-17-2007, 02:39 PM

For me, best = has the greatest equity. (i.e., pokerstove it)

That is not the common definition, though. Most people consider it to be the hand that would win "right now."

Similar arguments over semantics occur when you start talking about the definition of "being ahead."

Mano · #3 09-17-2007, 02:40 PM

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

jeffnc · #4 09-17-2007, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

[/ QUOTE ]

The made hand is the best hand. Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether you should be putting all the money in with the best hand. It's pretty obvious that if you have K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and your opponent has 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he has the best hand, but he should fold if you move all-in (and the pot is small compared to the stack sizes.)

jeffnc · #5 09-17-2007, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Similar arguments over semantics occur when you start talking about the definition of "being ahead."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that one's a little trickier. "Being ahead" is often thought of as the percentage signs on the hands on TV.

Courtesy Flush · #6 09-17-2007, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So my question is, what do you consider to be the "best" hand? The made hand or the one with the highest winning %?

[/ QUOTE ]

The made hand is the best hand. Which has absolutely nothing to do with whether you should be putting all the money in with the best hand. It's pretty obvious that if you have K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and your opponent has 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he has the best hand, but he should fold if you move all-in (and the pot is small compared to the stack sizes.)

[/ QUOTE ]

So the donks were right and I was wrong?

I feel so low.

AngusThermopyle · #7 09-17-2007, 02:53 PM

If all the money is going in, the "best hand" is the one with the most equity. It doesn't matter if one hand is currently "ahead". You collect the pot after the River card, not before the Flop or on the Turn.

But even in your case, consider that AQc is a 47.6 to 52.4 dog vs 8h8d heads up.
What changes the numbers is the presence of the K8. So, if the K8 had mucked, and you were heads up, it would appear that the 88 was now the 'best hand', until you consider the dead cards (AQc is then a 53-47 favorite). But if you are going to do that, you have to ask everybody what they mucked.

Yads · #8 09-17-2007, 02:58 PM

The best hand is the one that would win if no more cards were dealt.

ReptileHouse · #9 09-17-2007, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So the donks were right and I was wrong?

I feel so low.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more like, "There's no definitive ansewr, and this argument isn't going to be over anytime soon."

El_Hombre_Grande · #10 09-17-2007, 04:45 PM

They are using the term "best hand" wrong. Its all the same heads up, but you weren't heads up. 88 is the "best hand," but its not favored to win in this situation, which of course makes the reference to "best hand" amusing.

Of course, maybe the donks have a keen sense of irony, I dunno.