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  #1  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:04 AM
stigmata stigmata is offline
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Default iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

Several regular posters - myself included - have expressed a wish for an iPoker Datamining service. Seeing as nobody appeared to be doing anything about it, I took the task upon myself.

Wanting to separate business & personal posts, I set up another user account "iPokerData". Also, once the service was up & running I intended to get someone else doing the day-to-day running, thus increasing the need for a separate "business" account.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

I made two short posts, of one sentence, that expressed I would run a service if there was sufficient demand. This is a world away from the usual spam of "$200 bonus at FullTilt" etc.

In fact, others have done exactly the same thing in the past, e.g. provide information about their useful datamining service to the forum. E.g:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...page=0&vc=1
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

There are plenty of other examples. Why am i constituted spamming, when these services and many applications (PokerTracker, PAHUD, ad infinitum) are not? Furthermore, several of the services/softwares posted in the forums - without problem - are in flagrant breach of the T&Cs of the pokersites, whereas there is absolutely nothing in the iPoker Terms & Conditions that ban data mining.

There is also much demand for an iPoker Datamining service. Why can I not release information about a service that many people find useful, but others can?

Whilst you state: "Posts made with the intent of the promotion of any goods or services, including other websites, will be deemed spam and will not be allowed", the policy is haphazardly applied. There are literally thousands of examples of posts promoting goods and services, most of which are an extremely useful addition to the forums. It is actually one of the big draws of the forum.

Your T&Cs need to give better guidance to this matter. Where here do you draw the line? How did I cross it? Is making an announcement in the software forum "the done thing?"
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:56 AM
Mike Haven Mike Haven is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

I'm not going to give an overall policy judgement here, but I did want to say that I was the evil mod who banned "you".

I thought your posts ranked as spam, both because of the name and because of the content of the two or three posts that I read, where you asked people to PM you. Hence my decision.

Incidentally, by way of an example of "how to do it", imo, the proprietors of PokerParadime first PMed me with a copy of their intended post in Software, then agreed that I could repost their PM in the mods' forum. It was decided in there that they could have one "announcement post" in Software, after which they could only add valid and genuine news in that thread, or answer questions by readers in other threads, (as well as join in non-associated discussion, if they wished).

They wanted to include PokerParadime in their thread title, but I asked them not to. They agreed, immediately.
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:47 AM
stigmata stigmata is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

No problems with you, although I do think it was a rather draconian decision. My problem is with the lack of consistency and reasonable guidelines.

The whole software forum is apparently in breach of your T&Cs.

If PMing the moderator prior to posting is the "way its done" then why doesn't it say that somewhere?

Also, there PokerParadime is a pretty different situation. I was only trying to simply guage the level of demand. I have nothing to spam about at the moment. *If* I had found sufficient demand I would have PM'd a moderator before starting a new thread in the software forum.


Can You:

1) Accept that the T&Cs of the site are entirely inadequate? This leads to confusion for both posters and moderators. Or am I missing something here?
2) Re-instate the iPokerData account or let me re-post, so that I can gauge the level of demand for this service?
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2007, 10:44 AM
Mike Haven Mike Haven is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

I was informing you that I banned your account. I still think that the name and asking readers to PM you in (I think) at least two of three posts was a justifiable reason for the ban. Your complaint is also reasonable, and one of the reasons for ATF's existence.

I did not mean to imply that everyone should necessarily follow PP's method. It was fresh in my mind, and I thought it was a good way for someone like them to proceed.

Perhaps you should PM SamIAm for his opinion? If he chooses to unban your account, I have no problem with that.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:11 AM
stigmata stigmata is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

I'm honestly not sure I understand why "asking readers to PM you .... was a justifiable reason for the ban". I simply didn't want to clutter the threads, and my intentions were very obvious.

To clarify, I only made 2 posts, in extremely relevant threads, and clearly had no intention of widespread spamming.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:28 AM
Mike Haven Mike Haven is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

For purposes of full disclosure, these are the two posts by your account "iPokerData":

[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering starting an iPoker Data Mining service, if there is sufficient demand. Please PM me for details.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering it, if there is sufficient demand. Please PM me for details.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:41 AM
tomdemaine tomdemaine is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

[ QUOTE ]
For purposes of full disclosure, these are the two posts by your account "iPokerData":

[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering starting an iPoker Data Mining service, if there is sufficient demand. Please PM me for details.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm considering it, if there is sufficient demand. Please PM me for details.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds legit.
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:44 PM
*TT* *TT* is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

stigmata -

you made the mistake of posting it in the wrong forum. 2+2 has turned a blind eye on this type of one-time only posting in the software forum. In fact many developers use the software forum threads as their defacto tech-support forum.

I think this is a fair trade off, it wouldn't be fair to two plus two's advertisers who put a significant investment in promoting their brands here otherwise.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2007, 01:06 PM
SamIAm SamIAm is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

It's always hard to draw the spam/content distinction in the Software forum. It's largely a discussion of for-pay software, so it's tough to deny the authors the ability to answer questions and even make announcements. On the other hand, we definitely don't want spammers interrupting conversations to push their own product.

In the software forum, after personal communication via PM, I've often let authors post a single announcement, under the understanding that it'd be the last un-invited post they ever make on the subject. The PAHud guys are really star examples of this. If somebody says "I found this bug in PAHud." they'll answer pretty quickly with a fix or a work-around. On the other hand, if somebody says "I wonder which HUD I should buy." they stay mum. They essentially only respond when the word "PAHud" is used in the question, and I think it serves the 2+2 community well.

I understand that making these decisions as they come is wishy-washy, but if there was a stated policy that everyone deserves a single post pushing their product, the forum would immediately be over-run with 1st-post spam, pissing off both the 2+2 community and its advertisers.

edit: It'd be convenient if the Software forum could just say "No links or discussion of your own for-profit software. Ever.", but I think it would hurt our discussions. On the other hand, I don't think this rule would hurt other forums nearly as much, so it makes sense to have less tolerance in other forums.
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2007, 01:21 PM
stigmata stigmata is offline
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Default Re: iPoker Data Mining service spam-banned, unjust?

[ QUOTE ]
stigmata -

you made the mistake of posting it in the wrong forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that the software forum is the sort of thing for this. I would have asked for permission before starting a thread there.

But all I was doing was discovering if there was demand for a product. It is so low-key and early in the process that I didn't think it warranted a new thread. There were already threads about the situation, so I posted in those. It seemed like the sensible thing to do.
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