TT too aggressive or not aggressive enough ?

As Zehn · #1 05-09-2006, 06:29 PM

PF: Strong starting hand. Serious error not capping the betting?

Flop: Self explanatory.

Turn: Was a little worried about flush and str8 draws. Tried to win the pot at this point by raising wasn't confident enough to re-raise (too weak tight)?

All comments appreciated.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 3-bets, MP2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (21.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 33.75 BB

kerowo · #2 05-09-2006, 06:49 PM

4 of a kind hands are really not that interesting.

TT is on the edge of cap land, probably looking in so it's not horrible to not cap it.

Putting villain on AQ on the turn is pretty silly unless you have a read that he overplays big aces UI on the flop. I'm starting to think villain has JJ-AA. Without reads on villains 3-bet range I'm capping here as well. But really, this isn't a very interesting hand and looks like it should be in BBV.

Fantam · #3 05-09-2006, 07:16 PM

I think that calling the preflop 3-bet was standard with TT.

Maybe you could have capped the turn, but it was no big deal that you didnt.

Just maybe UTG or UTG+1 had KK, but I very much doubt it. Their betting patterns were just far too strange for that.

Perhaps UTG had KJo and UTG+1 had JJ. They are amongst the few hands that could explain their betting behaviour to me.

Anyway, you didnt miss many bets on this hand, and you were aggressive enough.

Kerowo is right by the way. You will probably increase your win rate by concentrating upon the play of your more marginal hands.

Thats where you pick up pots by not folding too soon when you have the correct pot odds to make drawing to a potential winning hand profitable.

And thats where you also save bets by folding drawing hands, which are not worth continuing with.

tiltaholic · #4 05-09-2006, 07:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4 of a kind hands are really not that interesting.

TT is on the edge of cap land, probably looking in so it's not horrible to not cap it.

Putting villain on AQ on the turn is pretty silly unless you have a read that he overplays big aces UI on the flop. I'm starting to think villain has JJ-AA. Without reads on villains 3-bet range I'm capping here as well. But really, this isn't a very interesting hand and looks like it should be in BBV.

[/ QUOTE ]

whatever it is interesting up until the river.
if op were sneaky he'd have clipped the river out and no one would have any problems...

tiltaholic · #5 05-09-2006, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF: Strong starting hand. Serious error not capping the betting?

Flop: Self explanatory.

Turn: Was a little worried about flush and str8 draws. Tried to win the pot at this point by raising wasn't confident enough to re-raise (too weak tight)?

[/ QUOTE ]

pf- when UTG+1 limp reraises i'll probably cap pf but calling the 3-bet is ok to.

turn - JJ is the only real hand i'm worried about, but i don't think it really matters that much whether you call or cap. (need reads)

Nfinity · #6 05-09-2006, 07:58 PM

PF: Cap it. Your missing out on a lot of value 4-way not capping this. If you get isolated with the raiser sometimes its cool, but that's more of a 6-max thing. In this situation go ahead and cap.

Flop is fine.

Turn: This is not the time to be worrying about straights. Worry about Straights and flushes when you don't have a full house on the River. This is probably a little over-dramatic in SOME situations, but for the most part you can trust in it. It's DEFINETELY not the time to be worrying about the flush DRAW. If UTG had made no actions on the Flop, and he all of a sudden just woke up here on the Turn I'd give it a little more consideration, but with the action he's given, I'd say 2pair or a decent 1 pair hand with a gutshot(ie. AK or AJ) are wayy more likely. That coupled with the bajillion outs you have against 89, AQ, or Q9 makes capping the Turn almost mandatory IMHO.

Nice pot for quads.

Aaron W. · #7 05-09-2006, 08:16 PM

I like UTG+1. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

SoftcoreRevolt · #8 05-09-2006, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4 of a kind hands are really not that interesting.

But really, this isn't a very interesting hand and looks like it should be in BBV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because he hit 4 of a kind on the river doesn't mean this is a "HOW DO I PLAY QUADS" hand.

Preflop, and the turn are both interesting in this hand.

Preflop isn't a cap for me here.

Flop is obvious. Turn, you shouldn't worry about flush draws here. Why? Because you are far ahead of them. I'd cap the turn too. UTG is unlikely to have JJ, and almost certaintly doesn't have KK. So you are realistically looking at him having QJ that beats you, and 77, KT, KJ, maybe K7, and JT that you beat. Some of those are less likely than others, but I'd say 77, KT, and JK are just as likely as QJ. So cap the turn.

TommyChong · #9 05-09-2006, 08:41 PM

This is fine. Unless he is a lagtard I'm not capping the turn either. Not because of a draw but because he is acting like he has a higher set. I'm guessing he had JJ. If you think somebody is on a draw and not a made hand then you want them putting money in.

poker_n00b · #10 05-09-2006, 09:03 PM

I'd say 50% of the time utg+1 has QQ-AA and the other 40% JJ and the other 10% other hands.

I also want to respond to a claim, made by Nfinity who said we are missing a lot of value by not capping this preflop against 4 opponents. I always wanted to research such claims, as to how much value PREFLOP are we giving up by not capping. So I used Poker Stove to figure it out. We assign 3 players some top 40-50% hands and utg+1 we assign AA-JJ hands because of his limp raising.

With this setup we do win the hand 14%. When we do not cap preflop we give up, if all players would call, 0.28 BB. I don't know if this is a good method to research this.