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#3
02-02-2007, 03:46 PM
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Re: Bible Club: Exodus
In an effort to bring some discussion back to Exodus, my thoughts:
1) The OP pretty much summed up most of my thoughts. The god of the old testament is getting worse and worse. When I read the "hitleroonism" thread I thought it was a little far-fetched in some parts, but now I have little choice but to think that the OT God was an evil sadistic being. It's almost like he is having fun with pharoah, showing him amazing things but then hardening his heart to stop him from giving in. In some cases, pharoah even wants to give in, but he can't because God won't let him. And why do you have to kill the firstborn of someone in the dungeon? This is psychokiller at its worst. He made a covenant with Noah not to commit mass slaughter again, but he seems to have forgotten about that little promise. Should have gotten it in writing instead of just a rainbow. After all, it's hard to have rainbows in the desert. 2) I find it strange that the supposedly omniscient God needs the jews to put blood on the doors so that he knows where they live. In fact, between Genesis and Exodus, I'm having a very hard time understanding where the concept of an O3 God came from in the first place. 3) I've always thought that kosher laws were silly and outdated, especially when I hear the reasons for them. "Don't boil a calf in its mother's milk" HARDLY translates to "don't eat meat with dairy" to me. But beyond that, I was always told that the reason for the unleavened bread at passover was because the jews didn't have time to make the bread rise. NOT SO. God specifically told them NOT to leaven their bread, and it was just a coincidence that they didn't have time to leaven it. Now, of course some people are going to claim that God planned it all that way, but the order in which the story is told seems strange. 1 - God says "don't leaven your bread." 2 - They try to leaven it anyway but have to leave before they're done. Weird. 4) Along the same lines as (3), God is making up some weird rules again. First, in Genesis, you have to show your love for him by cutting off part of your penis. Now, you show your love by not leavening your bread, or by making all kinds of weird sacrifices and wearing specific pieces of clothing. I can just imagine Moses sitting on the mountaintop trying to write all this down. "Ok, the curtains are supposed to be blue? Wait, back up. How many gold rings? Where does the silver go again?" Given the scarcity of paper back in those days, he either had a great memory or an Easy Button sitting around somewhere. 5) I will forever have a new view of Passover as a celebration of the slaughter of the Egyptians. 6) Possibly the worst part of the story for me came right after the jews escaped from SLAVERY, and God tells them WHAT THEY SHOULD DO WITH THEIR OWN SLAVES. So not only is he a sadistic killer who for some reason shows favoritism to the jews because of a promise he made to a few of them years ago, but now he is a fantastic hypocrite as well. Also, their slaves can only participate in things if they cut off part of their penis. More weird demands. Maybe God is setting up for an insanity plea? 7) The language that was used to refer to "other gods" was strange to me. It almost gave the impression that there ARE other gods. Take ch. 20: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." In addition, he tells Moses on several occasions not to worship the gods of other people. No mention that the reason for this is because those gods are false, but only that the Jealous God is the one who should be worshipped. 8) In related news, I find it amusing that idols are not allowed, but that a ridiculous amount of gold and craftsmanship is required to worship God. Why can't we just pray meaningfully? Why all the nonsense and shennanigans? 9) The people in the bible are once again being idiots. The jews have SEEN the power of God so many times on their escape, and they are still so impatient. Their reaction to "we don't know where Moses is" is to worship a golden calf? Where the hell did Aaron get that idea?? That's all of my quick notes for now. More thoughts to come. ~M^2 
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#4
02-02-2007, 04:27 PM
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Re: Bible Club: Exodus
[ QUOTE ]
The language that was used to refer to "other gods" was strange to me. It almost gave the impression that there ARE other gods. Take ch. 20: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." In addition, he tells Moses on several occasions not to worship the gods of other people. No mention that the reason for this is because those gods are false, but only that the Jealous God is the one who should be worshipped. [/ QUOTE ] This would make sense if the people creating this religion actually believed in other Gods. Remember when the Romans adopted Christianity, they still worshipped their Gods. [ QUOTE ] The people in the bible are once again being idiots. The jews have SEEN the power of God so many times on their escape, and they are still so impatient. Their reaction to "we don't know where Moses is" is to worship a golden calf? Where the hell did Aaron get that idea?? [/ QUOTE ] I'm glad you listed this. I remember many years ago being puzzled by this. (It may have been while watching the film the 10 commandments) Trying to figure out why the Jews suddenly decided worshipping some other God when it was pretty clear the 'other God' was the real deal. But you really have to stop looking for logical consistancy in the Bible if you're going to read it. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone express their confusion at this though. I'm glad that you posted this thought.
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#5
02-02-2007, 05:06 PM
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Re: Bible Club: Exodus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The language that was used to refer to "other gods" was strange to me. It almost gave the impression that there ARE other gods. Take ch. 20: "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth." In addition, he tells Moses on several occasions not to worship the gods of other people. No mention that the reason for this is because those gods are false, but only that the Jealous God is the one who should be worshipped. [/ QUOTE ] This would make sense if the people creating this religion actually believed in other Gods. Remember when the Romans adopted Christianity, they still worshipped their Gods. [ QUOTE ] The people in the bible are once again being idiots. The jews have SEEN the power of God so many times on their escape, and they are still so impatient. Their reaction to "we don't know where Moses is" is to worship a golden calf? Where the hell did Aaron get that idea?? [/ QUOTE ] I'm glad you listed this. I remember many years ago being puzzled by this. (It may have been while watching the film the 10 commandments) Trying to figure out why the Jews suddenly decided worshipping some other God when it was pretty clear the 'other God' was the real deal. But you really have to stop looking for logical consistancy in the Bible if you're going to read it. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone express their confusion at this though. I'm glad that you posted this thought. [/ QUOTE ] Another weird thing about it is the way Aaron describes it to Moses. "I threw the gold into the fire, and out came this calf." Almost like it was magic or the work of other gods. When they describe the making of the calf the first time though, it seems like he molded it himself. Was Aaron lying to avoid the whole MASS-MURDER thing that followed?
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#7
02-02-2007, 05:40 PM
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Re: Bible Club: Exodus
[ QUOTE ]
Good stuff. I think I'm going to start taking notes as I read so I can point out all the silly stuff - the whole book is really rife with it. [/ QUOTE ] All the other rules are some of the silliest stuff. Why God makes all these crazy demands is beyond my comprehension. Also, something I never realized before - I got the impression that the "tablets" did not just contain the 10 commandments, but all the other laws as well (stuff about goats and bulls and whether someone shall surely be put to death). Is that true?
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#8
02-02-2007, 07:52 PM
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Re: Bible Club: Exodus
[ QUOTE ]
The OP pretty much summed up most of my thoughts. The god of the old testament is getting worse and worse. When I read the "hitleroonism" thread I thought it was a little far-fetched in some parts, but now I have little choice but to think that the OT God was an evil sadistic being. [/ QUOTE ] M^2, So it just summed up what you already thought? Don't we have a name for that? When you're reading these stories do any alarm bells go off that maybe there's some type of "moral to the story," other than summing up your preconceived notions? I mean at one point we have the children of Israel who are slaves in Egypt. Then God performed a series of dazzling miracles and gets them out. Now they have their freedom and are heading for the Promised Land. (Warning! Plot Spoiler) But they never got there. Why not? Well, they griped about the food - they had just been delivered from slavery and they are complaining about the food?! They whined and cried and griped about the water. In the desert they HAD water to drink, but... it didn't taste that good?! They whined and complained about the leadership... that had just delivered them from slavery?! They complained that it was too hot, too cold, too far, too difficult, too rocky. They whined and cried for years - forty to be exact. Finally, God said, "that's it - I've had it - Trip Cancelled!" Can you find any moral to this story at all? I know this sounds facetious, but I'm really not trying to be. This is just boggling my mind.
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#9
02-02-2007, 09:10 PM
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Re: Bible Club: Exodus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The OP pretty much summed up most of my thoughts. The god of the old testament is getting worse and worse. When I read the "hitleroonism" thread I thought it was a little far-fetched in some parts, but now I have little choice but to think that the OT God was an evil sadistic being. [/ QUOTE ] M^2, So it just summed up what you already thought? Don't we have a name for that? When you're reading these stories do any alarm bells go off that maybe there's some type of "moral to the story," other than summing up your preconceived notions? I mean at one point we have the children of Israel who are slaves in Egypt. Then God performed a series of dazzling miracles and gets them out. Now they have their freedom and are heading for the Promised Land. (Warning! Plot Spoiler) But they never got there. Why not? Well, they griped about the food - they had just been delivered from slavery and they are complaining about the food?! They whined and cried and griped about the water. In the desert they HAD water to drink, but... it didn't taste that good?! They whined and complained about the leadership... that had just delivered them from slavery?! They complained that it was too hot, too cold, too far, too difficult, too rocky. They whined and cried for years - forty to be exact. Finally, God said, "that's it - I've had it - Trip Cancelled!" Can you find any moral to this story at all? I know this sounds facetious, but I'm really not trying to be. This is just boggling my mind. [/ QUOTE ] Jews are whiny? We should be thankful to God for the good things he does for us and completely ignore all of the horrible things he does TO us?
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#10
02-02-2007, 09:12 PM
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Re: Bible Club: Exodus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The OP pretty much summed up most of my thoughts. The god of the old testament is getting worse and worse. When I read the "hitleroonism" thread I thought it was a little far-fetched in some parts, but now I have little choice but to think that the OT God was an evil sadistic being. [/ QUOTE ] M^2, So it just summed up what you already thought? Don't we have a name for that? When you're reading these stories do any alarm bells go off that maybe there's some type of "moral to the story," other than summing up your preconceived notions? I mean at one point we have the children of Israel who are slaves in Egypt. Then God performed a series of dazzling miracles and gets them out. Now they have their freedom and are heading for the Promised Land. (Warning! Plot Spoiler) But they never got there. Why not? Well, they griped about the food - they had just been delivered from slavery and they are complaining about the food?! They whined and cried and griped about the water. In the desert they HAD water to drink, but... it didn't taste that good?! They whined and complained about the leadership... that had just delivered them from slavery?! They complained that it was too hot, too cold, too far, too difficult, too rocky. They whined and cried for years - forty to be exact. Finally, God said, "that's it - I've had it - Trip Cancelled!" Can you find any moral to this story at all? I know this sounds facetious, but I'm really not trying to be. This is just boggling my mind. [/ QUOTE ] Jews are whiny? We should be thankful to God for the good things he does for us and completely ignore all of the horrible things he does TO us? [/ QUOTE ] Which reminds me of something I thought about in class today. Why is no one worried that prayer might be CAUSING cancer? Surely its possible. God likes to punish whiny, needy people. Help yourselves, he always said. So how come we don't worry about prayer causing cancer? If you are worried about the mechanism, surely it could use some fashion of the 'cancer-curing' pathway thats already been well-established. Of course I can't prove prayer causes cancer, but you can't prove it doesn't. Shouldn't priests take this into consideration when they pray for sick people, and ask the sick people and their families to pray as well?
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