you forgot to make a side pot? ok. you dropped the deck too? >:|

[tyler_cracker]

4/8 limited texas hold them.

a woman is all in for a full bet preflop ($4) in a limped pot. the bb checks, and the dealer raps the table and begins dealing the flop. he announces, "5 players, 1 all-in".

the flop comes out 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. i lead the flop, a guy on my left raises, everyone else folds, i call.

turn is the 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. i donk and the other guy folds.

i look up and the dealer is pushing me all the chips. i say, "where's the sidepot?" dealer remembers the all-in player, who is still sitting there holding onto her cards.

i say, "that's ok, let's see the river and then if i win we won't have to worry about it." i table my hand (9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). the woman follows suit and tables her hand (J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]).

however, at some point during the proceedings, the dealer has dropped the stub onto the muck. there are two cards sitting on top that are probably the other dude's mucked hand, but it certainly isn't clear what is what.

dealer calls the floor. floorman gets the story and says, "hang on," and goes to get another floorman. floorman #2 listens to the story and rules that i get the sidepot, and that we'll chop the main pot.

i suggest that we could instead shuffle everything and burn and turn the river, but he says that's no good.

questions:

1. is the decision correct?

2. is the decision fair?

3. is there a better way to do it? something i though of a little later was to figure our pot equity (i'm not quite a 3:1 favorite in this particular case) and divide it accordingly. ignoring the practical and table image complications, is this a reasonable approach?

[onadraw]

obv you get the side pot but then the main pot should be decided by the completion of the hand. reconstitute the stub as best as can be done, shuffle it and then complete the hand.

[pfapfap]

Agree the stub should be reshuffled, but this is a rarely-used rule unlikely to be consistent from room to room or floor to floor.

This is one reason why we're trained to put the cut card on top of the stub. Considering how darned repetitious dealing is, it's a common enough error to think a hand is over when it's not. Usually I notice immediately, but if my habit were to wash the stub immediately, it'd be a lot more difficult to protect myself. Tho' I also understand why some rooms prefer dealers specifically don't do it this way.

[pokerdoug1973]

I think the ruling is incorrect. Stub and muck should be shuffled, burn and bring river card. Then later dealer should be counseled for mucking the stub. We don't require dealers to put cut card on top of the stub, but we require them to keep it separated from the muck when it is released.

[onadraw]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the ruling is incorrect. Stub and muck should be shuffled, burn and bring river card. Then later dealer should be counseled for mucking the stub. We don't require dealers to put cut card on top of the stub, but we require them to keep it separated from the muck when it is released.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not have a dealer shuffle KNOWN muck cards into the stub.

[rograndom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the ruling is incorrect. Stub and muck should be shuffled, burn and bring river card. Then later dealer should be counseled for mucking the stub. We don't require dealers to put cut card on top of the stub, but we require them to keep it separated from the muck when it is released.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not have a dealer shuffle KNOWN muck cards into the stub.

[/ QUOTE ]

What difference would it make? They're all unknown to the players left in the hand.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the ruling is incorrect. Stub and muck should be shuffled, burn and bring river card. Then later dealer should be counseled for mucking the stub. We don't require dealers to put cut card on top of the stub, but we require them to keep it separated from the muck when it is released.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not have a dealer shuffle KNOWN muck cards into the stub.

[/ QUOTE ]

There were no known muck cards -- from OP

[ QUOTE ]
but it certainly isn't clear what is what.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point it is not known what was in the muck and what was in the stub.

[Befolder]

Tyler, I think you need to quit buying over sized sandals for your pet, or was that purchased as his/her bed?

[mccoymat]

This is the official ruling.

All of the cards that have mixed with the stub, and are not 100% decernable as a players mucked hand, and/or burned cards, etc.. Are to be re-shuffled and the final burn and river is to be laid out.

Bluff Magazine interview with TJ Cloutier:

Bluff Magazine: In all your years, what’s the strangest thing you’ve seen at the poker table?

TJ Cloutier: Worst beat ever: I was playing in a live game years ago at the Bicycle club with Al Krux. He’s a good player, but he was running bad that day. He had something like $490, and he moved all in. The guy two seats to his left was getting a massage. He held up his hand showed it to the masseuse and mucked it. It got around to me on the button with two tens and I called. The dealer made a mistake; he didn’t see I’d called and he dropped the deck on the muck, so they had to reshuffle it all. When they reshuffled, the flop came K-10-4. Al had two kings in the hole, and the turn came another ten – so I made four tens to beat him. But that’s not the kicker. The kicker was that the guy that had held his hand up to the masseuse had had the other two tens. That’s the worst beat in history. You can’t get a worse beat than that.