Does the WSOP Main Event outcome help online poker politically ?

[tangled]

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Call me a pessimist, but I believe this is the worst possible result. Let me offer three reasons why:

(1) While there is some debate as to how useful the argument itself is, the argument that poker is a game of skill would have been strengthened tremendously if somebody more recognizable to the public at large could have taken down the main event. Scotty Nguyen would have been perfect, but I think getting a pro to take down the main event solidifies the argument that poker is a game of skill. Jerry doesn't do this. Jerry didn't look like a skillful player, he just looked like a player who the rest of the table didn't adapt to. (The one positive to this is that it probably has a fantastic chance of increasing the number of fish in the pond who will continuously throw money at the pot... if they are determined enough to get their money online.)

(2) Most of that $8 million may very well be out of the poker community for good. If we are really lucky, his 10% charitable contribution and other work to make his own life a little better will be all that gets drained from that prize fund.

(3) Most importantly, I don't think the argument that Jerry is a Christian, therefore other Christians will soften their view holds any water. I don't think many Christians will accept Jerry as a representative of their religion, and will instead denounce him.

When it comes to matters of religion, you can make as many rational and logical arguments as you like, but you're going to have a hard time overcoming their faith and belief structure. Those people who already were OK with gambling don't need their minds changed, and those who were not aren't going to be swayed by a Christian winning the Series. In fact, many of them won't even know about it.

But I think videos like the one that fun160 linked to are incredibly bad for poker. I'm significantly non-practicing as a Christian these days, and something just struck me as completely and totally wrong about the way Jerry would pray for particular cards. My wife, who is significantly more practicing, referred to it as the most blasphemous act she's seen in awhile (she doesn't watch the news thankfully [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). I worry that many Christians will share a more cynical view of these actions, should they be made aware of them, and want to separate themselves further from this behavior.

The worst part is, there's almost no way that this is getting edited out, because it's a part of his story, and isn't that what ESPN is all about?

In my view, trying to sway the religious right into having a reasonable view regarding gambling is going to be a losing proposition. Trying to sway the moderates and the undecideds is going to be a significantly easier proposition. I think that these people are more largely swayed by arguments related to games of skill, or being allowed to spend our money as we choose, or avoiding nanny-state types of behavior.

Instead, what we got is a final table where people couldn't help but give away their chips recklessly, where people needed protecting from themselves almost and had no one to do it, and had two fanatical individuals (Yang and Khan) who clearly weren't among the norm.

Just my two cents.

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I think this is great. We finally have someone at this forum who has ready access to someone who can decide for all of us how a Christian should act. I was worried I was going to have figure that out for myself. There are actually people out there who want to make Christianity a personal experience. Now they can forget all about that foolishness and just receive direction from your wife on what to think and how to act as a Christian.


OK, I'm being sarcastic, but my point is that if these FOF types try to attack this guy on how he sees and practices his faith, it will backfire. They will be revealing that they are using the idea of family as a guise to force their morality on the rest of us -- "My god!! Even being a Christian is not enough for these guys, you have to be a certain type of Christian. How dare they!!!"

[Uglyowl]

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(2) Most of that $8 million may very well be out of the poker community for good. If we are really lucky, his 10% charitable contribution and other work to make his own life a little better will be all that gets drained from that prize fund.

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Am I the only one who thinks this is a non-event. Do you think most others who won it would be foolish enough to redistribute $6-$7 million back to others via losses? This is an insane argument and not the first time I heard it.

The argument also assumes that there is a finite, non-regenerating, pie that gets used to play poker.

[Legislurker]

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(2) Most of that $8 million may very well be out of the poker community for good. If we are really lucky, his 10% charitable contribution and other work to make his own life a little better will be all that gets drained from that prize fund.

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Am I the only one who thinks this is a non-event. Do you think most others who won it would be foolish enough to redistribute $6-$7 million back to others via losses? This is an insane argument and not the first time I heard it.

The argument also assumes that there is a finite, non-regenerating, pie that gets used to play poker.

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You stole my post.

[Dunkman]

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(2) Most of that $8 million may very well be out of the poker community for good. If we are really lucky, his 10% charitable contribution and other work to make his own life a little better will be all that gets drained from that prize fund.

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Am I the only one who thinks this is a non-event. Do you think most others who won it would be foolish enough to redistribute $6-$7 million back to others via losses? This is an insane argument and not the first time I heard it.

The argument also assumes that there is a finite, non-regenerating, pie that gets used to play poker.

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You stole my post.

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Well, until we make some progress on the legislation front, there is pretty much a finite, non-regenerating pie that gets used to play poker.

[fun160]

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Since a Christian, Jerry Yang, can win invoking prayer during the game, is it really the Devil's game?

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I'm a Christian poker player and I've just got to get something off my chest. This video was completely embarrassing.

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What's more embarrassing to you: praying for good cards, or politicians who use Christianity as a tool to control people's personal lives?

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Yang was embarrassing. The politicos stirring up the Bible belt to stop online gambling was infuriating. These same folks "prudently" gamble with their retirement funds, except they've polished it and call it "investing."

[gsolis]

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God, I pray ESPN makes him look good.

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Be nice Norman.

[sluggger5x]

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When it comes to matters of religion, you can make as many rational and logical arguments as you like, but you're going to have a hard time overcoming their faith and belief structure.

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You are absoluetly right that it would be difficult to change the percpective of many Christians. However, if you ask any pastor, priest, or scholar they would admit to you that there is not a single reference in the Bible that tells us gambling in a sin. The bottom line is that many many Christians are stubbornly proclaiming that gambling is along the same lines as adultery, lying, and stealing when it is obviously not even addressed as a sin in the bible. Basically, Yang would help sway some of those Christians who are indifferent or on the fence and I know there are many who don't really have a stand on the matter simply because they don't know the Bible well enough.

We don't need to change the percpective of extreme right conservative Christians though, we simply needed a champion who could be a Christian with solid morals to show that many poker players are GOOD people (whether Christian or non-Christian) to the general non-poker playing public. We got that in Jerry Yang.

[Legislurker]

Any chanace the FT guy who posts here for them on occasion has read the thread yet?

And the USAToday writeup today was lacking, and backpage, infuriating. Anyone seen any good newspaper articles on him yet?

[TheMathProf]

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I think getting a pro to take down the main event solidifies the argument that poker is a game of skill.

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People keep saying this, but it's just nonsense. That "evidence" would be so easy to refute.

Let's say you go in front of a congressional committee that's having a debate about whether or not poker is a game of skill.

{snipped fake congressional hearing}


There are sooo many better ways to make the skill argument.

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I agree that there are better ways to make the skill argument using statistical data and such.

However, I think the public perception of skill lies in the idea of "the best players in the world can do this". When people who consider themselves amateurs repeatedly win the main event, that hurts the credibility of the skill argument.

It's not so much that you use the point of "Pro X won Main Event 2008" as an argument that poker is a game of skill, but that "Pro X won Main Event 2008" discourages people from questioning the amount of skill involved.

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...[My] point is that if these FOF types try to attack this guy on how he sees and practices his faith, it will backfire. They will be revealing that they are using the idea of family as a guise to force their morality on the rest of us -- "My god!! Even being a Christian is not enough for these guys, you have to be a certain type of Christian. How dare they!!!"

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But in all honesty, how many people took a look at this guy the first moment they saw him praying for a knockout and said, "Wow, this is tremendous! What a fantastic upstanding young man, fervently praying to the Lord for the river to hold his hand"?

A more accurate reaction is going to be of the "WTF?" or the LOL variety. He looks bad doing it, and I do think many Christians will want to distance themselves from that behavior.

The other piece -- that there are Christians out there who want to shove morals down your throat and think that everybody else is doing it wrong -- is not new and is not really a secret, and I don't really know why this particular instance would cause them to act any differently.

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Am I the only one who thinks this is a non-event. Do you think most others who won it would be foolish enough to redistribute $6-$7 million back to others via losses? This is an insane argument and not the first time I heard it.

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He probably wouldn't.

At the same time, Moneymaker didn't have to in order to get that amount of cash redistributed (and more) to the poker world. All he had to do was win, look and act like Joe Average, and have other people say, "Hey, I can do that!"

I haven't exactly put my finger on why, but Jerry doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who is capable of doing the same thing for poker.

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We don't need to change the percpective of extreme right conservative Christians though, we simply needed a champion who could be a Christian with solid morals to show that many poker players are GOOD people (whether Christian or non-Christian) to the general non-poker playing public. We got that in Jerry Yang.

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But, and tell me if I'm off my rocker a bit, is there public perception that the past few ME champions aren't good people? With the exception of Jamie Gold, who struck me as a bit offputting, Hachem, Raymer, and Moneymaker all generally struck me as being good guys. Perhaps not "religiously" so, but I don't think they have the opposite spin that makese people want to look at poker players and talk about how horrible they are.

Edited for formatting.

[MiltonFriedman]

If the PPA were worth its weight in BS, it would have press already by now on this theme .... God-invoking Christian Wins Millions at Poker, gives cut to Charity.

But, what do we know ?