General Strategy Question- Cold Calling a PreFlop Raise

[MatteyA28]

This is a general stack size problem I've been pondering lately.

MP2 raises to 3x BB
Folds to you on Button with KQs

My question is when would cold calling a raise no longer become an option and all you should be doing is pushing or folding.
30bb 25bb 20bb 15bb?

Also does being on one of the blinds change this number?

[BarryLyndon]

Your general stack size problem needs to include more than just your stack. Post an example.

Barry

[black666]

<10BB your are looking to shove in first as you have no FE once someone opened the pot

10-15BB are perfect for a shove after a 3xBB raise. But I don't know if I would do it against a MP2 raise with KQs. I like to shove into a CO, button or SB raise as those are the positions, people most likely open very wide.

15-20BB is the range where cold calling with a trouble hand can be a major spew. You are nowhere near the odds you need and you also don't have a stack to make a play on the flop (other than all-in). This is a stacksize I HATE to play - it's too much to shove and not enough to cold call.. I'm looking for a premium hand which I can go all the way (you don't want to invest half your stack with a raise, c-bet and still have no hand at all)

With +25BB I think cold calling becomes an option

[MatteyA28]

[ QUOTE ]
<10BB your are looking to shove in first as you have no FE once someone opened the pot

10-15BB are perfect for a shove after a 3xBB raise. But I don't know if I would do it against a MP2 raise with KQs. I like to shove into a CO, button or SB raise as those are the positions, people most likely open very wide.

15-20BB is the range where cold calling with a trouble hand can be a major spew. You are nowhere near the odds you need and you also don't have a stack to make a play on the flop (other than all-in). This is a stacksize I HATE to play - it's too much to shove and not enough to cold call.. I'm looking for a premium hand which I can go all the way (you don't want to invest half your stack with a raise, c-bet and still have no hand at all)

With +25BB I think cold calling becomes an option

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks! So if we go back to my example where a middle position player raised and we have KQs on the button with 23bb, do we have to fold? We are too shallow to call and and a reraise all in is > 7 times the raise, so we....

[clowntable]

[ QUOTE ]
<10BB your are looking to shove in first as you have no FE once someone opened the pot

10-15BB are perfect for a shove after a 3xBB raise. But I don't know if I would do it against a MP2 raise with KQs. I like to shove into a CO, button or SB raise as those are the positions, people most likely open very wide.

15-20BB is the range where cold calling with a trouble hand can be a major spew. You are nowhere near the odds you need and you also don't have a stack to make a play on the flop (other than all-in). This is a stacksize I HATE to play - it's too much to shove and not enough to cold call.. I'm looking for a premium hand which I can go all the way (you don't want to invest half your stack with a raise, c-bet and still have no hand at all)

With +25BB I think cold calling becomes an option

[/ QUOTE ]
10 BB, really?
5.5BB in the pot, you push for 10BB -> 15.5BB
He has to call 7, that's over 2:1

[seke2]

[ QUOTE ]
<10BB your are looking to shove in first as you have no FE once someone opened the pot

10-15BB are perfect for a shove after a 3xBB raise. But I don't know if I would do it against a MP2 raise with KQs. I like to shove into a CO, button or SB raise as those are the positions, people most likely open very wide.

15-20BB is the range where cold calling with a trouble hand can be a major spew. You are nowhere near the odds you need and you also don't have a stack to make a play on the flop (other than all-in). This is a stacksize I HATE to play - it's too much to shove and not enough to cold call.. I'm looking for a premium hand which I can go all the way (you don't want to invest half your stack with a raise, c-bet and still have no hand at all)

With +25BB I think cold calling becomes an option

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a push resteal better with 15-20xBB than I do with 10-15xBB, honestly. I'll still do it with 10-11xBB, but I feel like it's a lot riskier because my opponent will always be getting 2-1, as where when you have 15-20xBB, it's usually closer to 1.5-1, which is a lot easier for a decent player to fold (cause of odds) or a bad player to fold (cause they don't want to risk their tournament life/lots of chips/blah blah meow chow).

[bogey1]

In the 15-20BB I don't mind a float. It's an awkward stack size to play, so I don't mind throwing 3BB into a pot in position. If I hit, I may double through. If I miss, my stack size now approaches a more easily playable size. It's not that I want to throw the 3BB away, but that the utility of that 3BB is marginal so I'm more willing to gamble it.

KQs, 88-TT. I'll float those and commit the rest on good flops. On bad flops, I fold and figure it was worth the 3BB for the shot.

[seke2]

I think not restealing with hands like 88-TT on 15-20xBB stack is a huge mistake, because not only do you have a strong hand and FE, you have a hand that will sometimes get called by hands you are crushing (smaller pairs, ace-rag) and often by hands you are flipping, so you have a TON of equity. Meanwhile, a "good" flop that is not a "great" (set) flop with 1 overcard often makes it so your opponent just can't possibly fold their top pair regardless of the kicker, which they often would have folded to a resteal preflop. And you aren't deep enough to have the implied odds to play just for set value, frequently.

[bogey1]

I'm not playing for set value (well, unless a ton of people come in behind me, in which case, fine). With big broadways, like KQs I'm looking to hit or hit a strong enough draw to shove and hopefully take the pot or suck out.

With 88-TT, I'm looking for low cards on the flop. If the flop comes 359 or some such, my equity with TT becomes very large. Or a flop with 88 with one non-broadway overcard (like the 359 flop).

There was a 2+2 article probably a year or two ago (I think by Sklansky) about big, but not killer pairs. Well, actually, I think it talked about QQ vs AK. The gist was if you know he has AK and you have QQ, don't shove it all in preflop. Wait and see the flop. If it's good for you, you have 75% equity and then you shove. If the flop is bad, you get away from it.

I was thinking of that approach. There's a good chance (~50%) the flop won't have broadways at which point I can shove with high equity rather than shoving preflop with a 50/50 equity. If they had an overpair, I was toast anyway. The negative of course is when they would have folded to a resteal and I let them hit with something like QJs.

Am I misapplying the point of the Sklansky article?

Edit: tried to find the article, but 2+2 online only keeps them around for 3 months.

[seke2]

The problem is that you don't KNOW you are flipping, and when you have 88-TT that means you get called sometimes by a lower pocket pair.

Also, when you only have, say, 15xBB left, and you call 3xBB off preflop and then fold, you're down to 12xBB. Now if you double up, you're only at 24xBB, as where if you had pushed with 15xBB and gotten called, you'd have been at 30xBB on the double. That's a pretty big difference.

If you know your opponent's exact hand, sure, you can play better. But against a reasonable opening range and calling range, usually pushing mid-high pairs I think is way better.

So many people make retarded raises with 2 broadway or SCs or whatever when the stacks dictate that they shouldn't do that, and it makes them very exploitable to a resteal. I'd rather take a +EV gamble when I know I have it rather than call off 20% of my stack, fold postflop, and hope another good spot comes along before I'm out of chips.