50NL: Pot control line check with TPGK

[AlexB182]

[ QUOTE ]


P.S. This isn't a "drawy flop".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not as drawy a flop as say 9s8sX, but it is a drawy flop. I see no merits in checking this flop behind.

[AllTheCheese]

[ QUOTE ]

3)Would you also value bet this river when the board pairs and the flush gets there?

Yes.

4)I am never ever ever calling this river check raise against an opponent with these stats right?

No. I'll usually tell myself "Who the f*** plays a hand this way?" and try to convince myself to call, but river overbets from these types of players are pretty consistently the nuts.



[/ QUOTE ]

[AllTheCheese]

Alex, if Villain c/fs 77 or air on the flop and bets them, or check/calls (with the PP that is) on the turn, isn't that a merit? Certainly not unquestionable proof that checking is better than betting, but it's a merit, to be sure.

[Sounded Simple]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check behind is normal on this flop against this Villain. These people exaggerate.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you check a drawy flop against a passiveish player when you have the best of it a majority of the time? Hes not c/r his FDs....

[/ QUOTE ]

True but if he CR his sets and air then he might be able to put you in a tight spot.
I like a check unless I have a good sample showing "CR 0.00"

[AlexB182]

Of course that would be a merit but in case he has like KJ and would call a bet on flop and turn (maybe even on the river), we would lose a lot of value by checking flop behind. Same goes in case he has a FD, with which he might (wrongly) call two PSB on flop and turn with hoping to draw out.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


P.S. This isn't a "drawy flop".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not as drawy a flop as say 9s8sX, but it is a drawy flop. I see no merits in checking this flop behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, semantics. I would say that this definitely is not a drawy flop. Sure, it includes a flush draw, but that doesn't help out the villain's range a lot. I would tend to bet here with the intention of checking one of the streets(turn or river). Checking the flop is fine here as not many turn cards scare you and a little deception can be good for the soul.

[Sounded Simple]

Alex & Chesse -

There is a great chapter in "Mathematics of Poker" on how to play against a players range. Its a bit heavy on the maths (LDO!) but it does cover what your both (correctly) debating.

Personally I think there are more "Air" + "Missed PP" in his range than there are FD + worse kings.
Hence I like a check on the flop most times.

UNLESS-
The villan plays totally passive and predictable, i.e.
- Never check-raises here.(even better if he only ever cr sets since you get away cheap)
- Never fires the turn with air.
- Will call down a FD or a worse king.

In the OP the word "Tricky" was used, open to interpretation but if I have been getting jiggy with someone I check behind here in case they raise my c-bet.

[demon102]

I could see checking behind on the flop here I do it very rarely when Im playing a player I have history with but the turn I think is 100% raise, to both get value and protect that hand.

[RapidLearner]

[ QUOTE ]
1)Was this a bad spot to check behind on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
1) I'd bet flop. Why c-bet at all with nothing if you're not going to c-bet with your good hands? Plus, there are plenty of draws you have to charge out there.
[ QUOTE ]
2)Once I hit 2 pair on the turn I thought I could get more value on the river from a slowplayed K or just a Q by just calling, but should I raise here?

[/ QUOTE ]
2) I'd raise. You'll get called from lots of 1 pair hands, and again you need to protect against the various draws, especially since you checked the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
3)Would you also value bet this river when the board pairs and the flush gets there?

[/ QUOTE ]
3) Depends on how loose/passive the villain is on the river. Against a guy who calls a lot with 1pair type hands, but nearly never bluff-check-raises the river, I'd bet it. Against a much tighter player who folds 1pair type hands, I'd probably check, since sets/flushes+ are the only hands that are going to look you up or raise you. Against a really agro player who will bluff raise you in this spot, I'd just check behind and cry that I missed good spots to agro it up on earlier streets.

All in all, a 19/9/1.4 is a bit too passive for you to call a c/rai after the line you took. I like the thin value bet though, because it looks like a spot where a bluff catcher will try to pick you off. Do you make bluff bets like this in practice?
[ QUOTE ]
4)I am never ever ever calling this river check raise against an opponent with these stats right?

[/ QUOTE ]
4) I'd need a strong read to look somebody up in a spot like this. His range is easily 22 or better that was trying to trap somewhere in the hand.