Live 6/12: A8 flops a gutter and goes to war

[jesse8888]

This hand is very similar to the 56s I just put up. Apologies for repetitiveness, but I feel I need to be berated and explanated [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Table is amazing. 6 to 8 players per flop. One good TAAG (tight almost aggressive enough), and everyone else is functionally retarded. Player two to my right plays ATC to the turn. Player on his right called a bet on the river holding TT, saying "man that's a bad river card". The river was a T, giving him Tens full and his opponent a one card ace high flush. He flipped his cards over disgustedly and was genuinely confused when the dealer pushed him the pot. Player 2 seats to my left did this: In the big blind, check. Four players go a queen high rainbow flop, checks around. Turn is another Q. He bets, everyone folds, he tables JJ. Looks at me proudly and says "You'd have raised 3 times with that...You raise so much...TT, 99, even 88" as if to say he played it right and I'm the donkey. Then there is "mama", who bets top two only but peels for two bets with any gut shot HU.

On to the hand:

Hero has A8o on the button. 4 players limp in (good TAG has folded) and hero limps. Blinds complete.

7 handed, 6 small bets:

5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (hero has no spade)

Checks around to the CO (new to the table actually) who bets. Hero raises. One idiot calls, CO 3-bets, hero calls, idiot calls. Turn is an 8, idiot bets, co calls, hero folds.

Am I nuts? Did I have enough to pop him?

[gobbledygeek]

With lottsa limpers, I'm folding <= A9o on the CO, Button and SB. Is that super nitty?

Lately on flop I've been peeling with lottsa players to act again behind me cuz I rarely see it check/raised on the flop. I'm beginning to think that might be a leak. Anyhoo, I only count 4 solid outs here at best, we're getting 7:1 which will no doubt climb to 11:1 by the time everyone else calls, but we could be chopping (or even losing) if we hit our gutshot, plus we could still get flushed out. Honestly, in the heat of battle, I call but I think it's probably closer to a fold?

GcluelessnoobG

[jesse8888]

[ QUOTE ]
With lottsa limpers, I'm folding <= A9o on the CO, Button and SB. Is that super nitty?

Lately on flop I've been peeling with lottsa players to act again behind me cuz I rarely see it check/raised on the flop. I'm beginning to think that might be a leak. Anyhoo, I only count 4 solid outs here at best, we're getting 7:1 which will no doubt climb to 11:1 by the time everyone else calls, but we could be chopping (or even losing) if we hit our gutshot, plus we could still get flushed out. Honestly, in the heat of battle, I call but I think it's probably closer to a fold?

GcluelessnoobG

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually fold A8 and A9 offsuite on the button in this situation. At the time I felt that the table played so horribly that I had a license to gambool on the button.

At the time I gave myself 3.5 outs for the gutshot and 2 outs for the Ace, leaving me with 5.5. With implied odds, I felt compelled to at least call, and once I decide to call, well....theres often a raise a comin...

I posted the hand cause I want to know what other posters think, so thanks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Niediam]

I usually fold preflop but this table seems so amazingly good I'm fine with playing any two cards on the button that have any reasonable value.

I definately don't like the flop raise though.

If it was for value I don't like it because you probably don't have the best hand.

If it was for some sort of protection I again don't like it because you probably don't have the best hand and arn't getting these guys to fold.

If you are going for a free card I can almost see the logic but I'd rather call.

[jeffnc]

Playing against weak players is not exactly rocket science, so I'm not sure what you were doing in this hand. Fold preflop (or call), fold flop. You make money in these games by hitting hands and watching your pot odds, not raising calling stations when you have 2 outs. If you do happen to hit a miracle on the turn and don't get outdrawn on the river, even the most brain dead opponent is going to know the straight is obvious, so you don't even have enough implied odds to boost your bad pot odds anyway.

[wizard]

Laying it down preflop, even with this table is the prudent approach. You get into too much trouble to make this a profitable hand.

[One Outer]

Preflop I don't have a problem with. Sure, it's super marginal in a vacuum, but considering the mouthbreathers you're playing with I want to be in pots when I have position with anything vaguely close to reasonable. I think Ed Miller posted about this once, the gist being that the idea preflop is to give ourselves an edge, not play some sort of formulaic, chart based starting hand game. So good on you.

That being said, I don't like the flop raise. But we could go around all day about this, so that means it can't be that wrong if it is indeed wrong. I guess my rationale is that the only reason I can see for it is a free card but I just don't think you're going to get the free card often enough to justify it against this crowd.

[gobbledygeek]

Even if opponents are idiots, can we really outplay them postflop with A9, A8, etc.? What happens when an A flops; are we that comfortable with our hand? All higher Aces have us outkicked (and bad players limp these hands all day) and all lower Aces still have a chance of making two pairs. Plus we chop a lot.

Is it super nitty to think the best way to outplay bad opponents in these situations is to not play these weaker type hands in the first place?

GcluelessnitG

[One Outer]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if opponents are idiots, can we really outplay them postflop with A9, A8, etc.? What happens when an A flops; are we that comfortable with our hand? All higher Aces have us outkicked (and bad players limp these hands all day) and all lower Aces still have a chance of making two pairs. Plus we chop a lot.

Is it super nitty to think the best way to outplay bad opponents in these situations is to not play these weaker type hands in the first place?

GcluelessnitG

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I wish I could link to that Ed Miller post but...oh, screw it, I"m going to link it anyway, but it's not working at this moment for some reason. Future reference:

linky for taking off the training wheels

The basic idea here is that the more hands your opponents play the more hands you can play. If your opponents are, like Jesse's in this hand, limping in on like the top 80% of hands every...single...pot, suddenly even hands like A8o or K5s have an equity advantage. You want to be in the pot with anything within two degrees of separation from reasonable because your opponents are going to make so many mistakes to not be in the pot would be forgoing equity and leaving money on the table.

Of course, this is a higher variance strategy. I adjust this way but since one is my limitations is my tendency to be a tilt monster I don't open way, way up, at least not as much as others would. Tightening up is actually the worst way to respond to such a table.

And sometime before the day is up elindauer will swoop in a clarify, correct and ridicule my post. Hope this helps!

[jesse8888]

PF: Meh. Either way, really.

OK, so everyone hates the raise. I did it for 2 of the three reasons stated above:

1. Getting a free card. I felt that COs range was pretty darn large at this point, and that most of it would check to me on the turn. He might even just call and check a made straight or set to me, trying to trap the field for 2 big bets on the turn. Everyone else would almost HAVE to check given a bet/raise from the co/btn last hand.

2. Cleaning up outs. I could see this raise buying me a couple of outs, if I could get one card BD draws or gut shots to fold. Heck, if enough people folded, the 8s could end up being outs if CO is just betting middle pair.

I did not raise for value. There is a passage in SSHE that basically says this: "If the bet comes from your right, it's almost never correct to simply call. If you're going to play, you should raise." I really need to think about raising spots like this though, as clearly I spewed at least 2 and probably 3 small bets here.