Another standard hand I think...

BubbleMint · #1 11-20-2007, 08:40 AM

I feel compelled to call the river bet, although in reality what is he cold calling 2 on the flop with that makes him lead the turn.

Is anybody raising the turn for a free showdown ? or with my redraw outs (if I am behind) should I get to river for the one bet.
The CO is an atrocious player and would call one or two or even 3 bets here with ANY club, if I need the overlay.

Full Tilt 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Mitke · #2 11-20-2007, 08:51 AM

What's your read on SB? He's calling 15:2 on the flop so he doesn't necessarily need that much. A pair could be enough. That donk-lead to 4 players looks strong (converter seems to have mixed the number of players).

The decision to see the showdown UI must be made on the turn. Are you willing to take 6.5:1 odds you are still ahead UI?

I think you are not ahead often enough vs. unknown so you should fold the river.

I'm not sure can I make these folds in the heat of the battle in a pot this big. But decision should be made on the turn anyway.

Niediam · #3 11-20-2007, 09:10 AM

I fold the river approximately never.

Other people here love making big river folds but I'm not a fan of it at all.

Rest of the hand is standard.

Mitke · #4 11-20-2007, 09:28 AM

Yeah, I'm not very confident about folding the river getting 14:1 nor do it habitually.

However, my point was that the decision to see the showdown UI should be made on the turn getting 6.5:1 - is my thinking wrong here or should I just re-evaluate on the river separately?

The river is a total blank in all likelihood and should not change the situation compared to the turn.

I'd be more inclined to call the river if the turn had been an overcard to the flop. Now that SB donks into a field of 4 players when a flush and straight completes I read it to be either the most of the time.

StrictlyStrategy · #5 11-20-2007, 09:38 AM

I think call call is better than raise because:

Villain might be semibluffing, if this is the case the FSDR is baller.
Villain might be doing something stupid like b/f a weak hand.

Villain might have "it" and since it's online he'll 3bet here with as little as 8h7h so I think you should just call and call 2/3 rivers and raise the good ones.

Niediam · #6 11-20-2007, 09:54 AM

I think it's fine to decide on the turn to call down assuming that a blank hits and its one bet.

But if the river is an Ace and it goes bet/raise I'm certainly foldint regardless of what I thought on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mitke · #7 11-20-2007, 10:21 AM

Let me rephrase:

I argued that the decision whether to see the showdown UI or not should be made on the turn considering the 7-6.5:1 odds.

Is my thinking wrong here on a general level or should I consider the streets in isolation?

--

For this particular hand I thought getting 7:1 on the turn is not enough to showdown UI. That board hits so many hands in the typical cold-call range that I think Hero is behind on the turn and the river didn't change that.

If the villain donked the turn with e.q. Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Jx or A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Jx or similar then hats off to him as he would have got me to fold a better hand in a big pot (maybe not in the heat of the battle).

escapist · #8 11-20-2007, 10:24 AM

testing

Ricks · #9 11-20-2007, 11:33 AM

Mitke

We have the 2nd nut FD on the turn.

Mitke · #10 11-20-2007, 11:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ricks:
Mitke

We have the 2nd nut FD on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

And we have a GS to a straight as well. I'm not folding the turn. I'm folding the river UI.

I'm just trying to ask is my way of thinking wrong in general if I decide on the turn (considering the ~7:1 to calldown) not to go to showdown UI and to re-evaluate in case we improve - peeling the turn in any case.

I try to elaborate:

I'd fold red kings on the turn on the premise that I think we are behind too often that getting ~7:1 to calldown to be profitable and that out outs are tainted.

I call in this current spot as we have the odds to call. I'm not calling the river because I thought we were behind too often for calling down ~7:1 to be profitable..

Hmm.. come the river it's 14:1 and the 1BB we put in isn't ours anymore. So, re-evaluate to estimate if it's possible SB was donking a TP or something often enough for calling 14:1 to be profitable. I guess it's a crying-call all the same. I wouldn't call if it still was ~7:1.

So my previous blabbering didn't make any sense here and I was just messing around with my own head... just consider the streets in isolation if you decide to continue.

My apologies to the OP for this off-topic discussion.