Overpair vs. a bad and a good player

[PrayingMantis]

$109. UTG+1 and MP1 were limping a few hands. SB seems to be a loose bad player, but BB I recognize as a very good player, and he made a rather confident call on the flop (of SB's bet). I'm much more worried about his hand than about SB's hand. What is your move and plan?


PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1495)
UTG+1 (t845)
MP1 (t2285)
Hero (t1665)
MP3 (t1830)
CO (t2945)
Button (t1155)
SB (t1530)
BB (t1080)

Preflop: Hero is in MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, <font color="red">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB calls t135, BB calls t120, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>

Flop: (t510) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t120</font>, BB calls t120, <font color="red">

[TakenItEasy]

You are looking at a posible set, flush draw, st8+flush draw or even a T.

If BB is a good player I doubt he has a bigger overpair when he could be pricing in 5 players to see the flop. Stacks leave no room for a standard raise. I think a push here is correct.

[Colombo]

I really don't think you should be worried about either player here. SB made a very weak bet, which could be anything from a 4 to a flush draw. BB called, getting great odds. He could be doing this with 66-99, or a pair of 10s. He could also have a draw or set, but I doubt he has a set.


Anyways, you need to raise here. I'd probably raise to 800, then stick it in on the turn (you could always just push here as well. I'm really not sure which one is more EV+).

[PrayingMantis]

OK I was thinking that this hand was a little more interesting than what people seem to think. Of course that the one "obvious" move is all-in, but come on, I wouldn't post such a hand if it was so boring.

Few things: first, with the action preflop I think that I give a lot of information about my hand. I was playing solidly up to that point, so raising two limpers, when I'm in MP2 shows a lot of strength, and people can narrow my range to something like big pairs, AK I would say. So when SB and BB calls, they probably have some understanding of this, specifically BB, which is a good player.

Now when the flop comes these not very connected cards with a flush draw, SB's bet doesn't mean much to me, but BB's call should mean something, because I assume he isn't just throwing chips around. Now if I push and SB folds his XX, I can't see how BB is calling me here unless I'm way behind, ie, probably to a set. And in this sense I'm turning my JJ into 72 basically, as I don't see BB calling SB's bet with a draw, and then calling my raise. He would have raised himself if he had a big draw, and by that I mean more than just a random flush draw, which I don't think he would play to begin with. With FD and 2 overs, for instance, he would have raised SB. The same with any straight-flush draw, if he happens to have one (67dd for instance).

I think this is a relatively interesting case where I can't see how raising big now with JJ has more value than raising big with complete junk (if I happened to have junk in this spot), and that's why I'm posting this, not just to be told it's a raise.

[Jack-in-a-box]

I think if BB is a good player he realizes, that you could have a high pair in which case you would:

raise the pot after he calls the SB's bet
push if he (BB) reraises the SB's bet

That's why I doubt he is a really good player, because in this case a call is a bad play by him. He should have either fold or raise, keeping in mind that preflop raiser is still to act and may have anything from flush draw to a set