NL25 - Speculation preflop leads to this.....

jcg2005 · #1 11-20-2007, 06:48 PM

Preflop raiser is 28/14 over a small sample and i have been trying to see more flops in position against these type of players. Is this is bad hand to try this sort of thing with?

PokerStars $0.10/$0.25 No-Limit Hold'em - 8 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Button: $78.75
SB: $11.90
BB: $37.10
UTG: $29.80
UTG+1: $26.90
MP1: $13.00
MP2: $24.30
CO: $52.15

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, MP1 folds, Hero calls $0.75, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $0.50.

 I dont put the OR on an overpair due to his raise size preflop. He raised TT to 4x once before this IIRC. I am obviously happy to see an overcall since this makes pot the bigger and the blinds usually dont slowplay or make too many moves (esp in multiway pots) so i dont mind building the pot this way 

Flop: ($2.35) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)

 I was going to raise most cbets and now i gained a flush draw. Looks like a good a spot to semi bluff as any. Does anyone disagree? How is my raise size? 

BB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.25, Hero raises to $4.75, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $3.50.

Turn: ($11.85) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $6, Hero raises to $17.75, UTG+1 calls $11.75.

 To be honest i wasnt sure what to put him on at this point. That is probably my biggest flaw. I raised again here because i improved my draw and his bet just didnt feel right. He bet fast and 6$ isn't a very big bet into this pot. Standard? Spew due to the strength i have shown on the flop? Should i just stick it in here? Fold it? I get so lost sometimes. 

River: ($47.35) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.25

 Thats a cute [censored] bet. Will he ever fold to a shove i have a like 3$ left? Do i just call and make a note/ hope my pair is good/ vomit @ missing? How often would the pair have to be good to be +ev =) 

Final Pot: $47.85

AlexB182 · #2 11-20-2007, 06:52 PM

This is a horrible hand to call with PF, always, no matter what kind of villain raised...

Chargers In 07 · #3 11-20-2007, 06:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a horrible hand to call with PF, always, no matter what kind of villain raised...

[/ QUOTE ]I thought about saying the same but I wasn't going to comment on postflop so I decided not to...until now.

Varagh · #4 11-20-2007, 07:11 PM

bad position, bad odds, horrible turn play

RapidEvolution · #5 11-20-2007, 07:35 PM

Calling this raise with this hand is awful, unless it's specifically a case where you don't care what the cards are and are just looking to play position postflop. The fact that you're in MP2 lowers the value of this play IMO, since there are 2 people that can come in that have position on you (not to mention 4 players that could reraise and push you off your hand completely.

You get a pretty nice flop and make your move, but it doesn't push villain out. The raise size is fine and should fold out hands like AK/AQ. After he calls, I'd say an overpair is pretty likely. He could have something like AsKs or AsJs, but I think those hands would be happy to reraise and get the money in on the flop.

When he bets into you on the turn, you're actually getting the odds to call, assuming that spades and 9's are clean outs, AND there will be some money behind that you can get if you hit. Raising the turn only puts all of your money in as an underdog, and it seems pretty unlikely that he's folding.

On the river..you have $3 left...if he folds to a shove you should invite him to your home game (if I don't find him first). I'd call getting almost 200-1 on my bet. It's well worth it and there's a slim chance (better than 200-1 by far) that you'll see AsKs or AsJs and scoop the pot thanks to the river 6. If nothing else, it'll tilt the snot out of him.

WantToLearn · #6 11-20-2007, 08:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
 To be honest i wasnt sure what to put him on at this point. That is probably my biggest flaw. I raised again here because i improved my draw and his bet just didnt feel right. He bet fast and 6$ isn't a very big bet into this pot. Standard? Spew due to the strength i have shown on the flop? Should i just stick it in here? Fold it? I get so lost sometimes. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I learned the hard way when I moved up from NL10 to NL25 that bets actualy mean hands at NL25. Most of the time, that is. So he bets the flop, you raise, he calls - then he leads the turn for an amount that will probably not make you fold (from his perspective) but make the pot large. He really likes his hand.

BBQSquirrel · #7 11-20-2007, 08:35 PM

PF: On the button (sometimes in CO) I might call a raise w/ suited Queens after other coldcallers. In MP I don't like it.

Flop is fine.
Turn I might just flat (which is probably +EV). If you raise you probably have to shove because of the stack sizes
River is an instant call.

AlexB182 · #8 11-20-2007, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF: On the button (sometimes in CO) I might call a raise w/ suited Queens after other coldcallers. In MP I don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is like the worst advice in quite a while except you mean like AQs / maybe KQs...All other suited Qs are absolute trash in those spots.

xxrod17xx · #9 11-20-2007, 09:04 PM

Just fold pre. This is 25NL stop trying to get cute and start trying to win money (sorry to be blunt, but its needed). I dont think doing this will work at any level. Just dont call with a hand like that anymore.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 To be honest i wasnt sure what to put him on at this point. That is probably my biggest flaw. I raised again here because i improved my draw and his bet just didnt feel right. He bet fast and 6$ isn't a very big bet into this pot. Standard? Spew due to the strength i have shown on the flop? Should i just stick it in here? Fold it? I get so lost sometimes. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I learned the hard way when I moved up from NL10 to NL25 that bets actualy mean hands at NL25. Most of the time, that is. So he bets the flop, you raise, he calls - then he leads the turn for an amount that will probably not make you fold (from his perspective) but make the pot large. He really likes his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTL I disagree. For the most part, that bet usually means something but there are a number of villans that I have come up against at 25NL that simply just bluff on every street. You just have to pay more attention and take notes. Avoid the auto pilot you may be missing some value in spots. To clarify, you are being too general. Bets def dont always mean a hand at 25NL for sure.

toymach776 · #10 11-20-2007, 11:47 PM

There is no reason to call pf. This is just bad vs. any villain. Flop is fine to raise, I would just call turn.