Play a hand against me and maximize your value

[Shillx]

Call & raise 4th

[DeucesNeverLoses]

You're raising from SB, I think you can have AQs, AKs, TT+. I only think w/ this flop you 3-bet AQ/AKs/QQ+. If you have a set of Q's, it's a cooler, I still think I have the best hand. I j call your 3 bet and raise any non-heart turn. I think I get more value to raise turn when pot is bigger, because I could still have a hand like Q8s where any of your hands can improve on river. Does villain (aka I) have 5 of hearts (bdfd vs. QQQ helps out a LOT).

[Fnord]

Raising the turn is by far the worse option because a card might hit that kills our action and confronting him with 2 bets to showdown via an AMBUSH line might motivate him to make a good laydown.

Get the extra bet in while we're good and he likes his hand and hope to bump it one more time before showdown.

[jesse8888]

Cap the flop.
Bet or raise turn pretty much regardless of what falls.

If check/raised or 3-bet by you (you bahstahd) on the turn, I think I go into call down mode, also pretty much regardless of what comes off the deck. Unless it's the 5 of hearts, in which case I can't stop...cause they won't stop.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn is by far the worse option because a card might hit that kills our action and confronting him with 2 bets to showdown via an AMBUSH line might motivate him to make a good laydown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain's range should squarely be QQ+/KQs/AQ/AKhh and QJs(discounted) when he 3bets. There are no scarecards on the turn that will prevent him from slowing down or paying off once we get to the turn. If he's folding any of that range on the turn, he's not calling down enough and we have lots of profitable semi-bluffs against him later.

It's somewhat close, but we can decide to pop the turn because:
1. We have position so villain will bet 95% of his turns.(He may chicken out on some 8s, though most 2p2ers wouldn't.)
2. Villain should pay off a large majority of the time. The only turns he shouldn't payoff are the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] when he has KQs/QJs and non-[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8s some of the time(though 8s should look like a scare card as well). In raising the flop, it is unlikely that we have a flush draw, so villain would be hard pressed to not pay us off in a large pot(11BBs by the time we pop the turn).
3. Capping the flop significantly decreases our chances to raise the turn. Villain is likely calling down AA/KK/AQ/KQ UI at that point.
4. There are no scare cards for us; we should be raising all heart turns because even if villain has AKhh, it makes up a small percentage of his range that we still need to raise for value. We also have a large number of outs against his range.
5. Raising the turn helps compliment your turn-semibluffs in a shania-esque fashion and provides other meta-game benefits including the point that villain will be more likely to not play back at you lightly.

Following the creed of always fastplaying your monsters is not a bad rule of thumb to follow, but you are missing value if you don't recognize which spots you can afford to pop turns with.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
5. Raising the turn helps compliment your turn-semibluffs in a shania-esque fashion and provides other meta-game benefits including the point that villain will be more likely to not play back at you lightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to call [censored] here. How often are you calling flop 3-bets intending to raise the turn as anything but a value play? Capping the flop is a much easier line to balance via draws and it provokes a turn lead to avoid giving a "free" card. Shania sez cap the flop because it's a much easier range to balance.

[ProfessorBen]

There are many turns you should be semibluff/free showdown raising with Ah or an 8 if villain is weak enough to fold AA/KK/AQ here in a large pot, which is what you are implying.

Metagame applies to a variety of other situations though and not this specfic one. Nice strawman counter to something I listed last in a list of several points which you conveniently ignored, though.

[KitCloudkicker]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the most obvious answer here: it depends!

My default thinking when I see a line of b/r/c (flop) and then b/r turn is that I've run into a monster hand. This is particularly true when I play a 2+2er or the like who is familiar with such "value maximization" lines. Thus, unless I have a reason to think you would be attempting a fsdr (ie unless you have a history or being tricky as such) I'm not going to be calling you down lightly. In fact if the turn is a complete blank, I can pretty safely put you on a set and muck a hand like KQ/AQ.

Thus, if you havent been doing a lot of light raising on the turn, taking the b/r/c, b/r line is not as effective as a simple flop cap. When a thinking opponent caps the flop, particularly on a board that has a fair number of draws, it is unlikely that I'm going to slow down until I get raised on a turn blank. This is particularly true in 6 max where light flop aggression is common even from solid players.

Now lets analyze the turn play...say you cap the flop. Should you raise any turn card? Again I think it depends on what the turn is. If the turn is a total blank rag, I think you might be better off waiting until the river. As a fellow 2+2er, you should aware that I love to value bet. As the saying goes, a b/f is usually better than a c/c. Thus, if the turn blanks, I'm going to be betting almost any river. Dont give me the opportunity to shut down or make a good fold until the last card, where I will probably have to pay off your confusing line.

On the other hand, if the turn card completes some sort of possible draw, you are probably better off raising then, for 2 reasons:

1) If I hold a high heart, i'll certainly have to call the turn raise, and then I probably have to call the river even UI.
2) I can easily see a possible fsdr with a hand that I can beat that contain a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I would probably call down unless a 4th [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits and I dont have one.

Thus, I really think you should consider taking a flop cap, turn call, river raise line in a lot of instances. Again, however, it depends on what card comes out on 4th street, and what you think my perception of your play is. The flop call, turn raise line also can work at the right times, like I said. Mix it up.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
In raising the flop, it is unlikely that we have a flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

wait what?

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In raising the flop, it is unlikely that we have a flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

wait what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I should have said unlikely but our range should be weighted against a flush draw. Maybe not all of us, but I don't raise most of my flush draws here. I will admit that lots of 2p2ers will do it though.

Question: If you're raising with KhTh here, are you 3 barreling?