One of my friends thinks Theo Epstein is an overated GM.

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess he didn't draft Papelbon or Pedroia; however he also made the correct decision to hold on to them when many teams wanted to make a trade for vets/whatever

[/ QUOTE ]

so trading hanley ramirez instead of pedroia was the right move

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we don't know that that was ever an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought i read somewhere that it was - don't remember the source on it though.

i also forgot that epstein quit and returned or w/e

[NT!]

well i didn't give theo credit for beckett, he wasn't really the GM at that point was he?

i also don't think it's so bad that they gave up hanley. yes, he had a fantastic year and is going to be a star. beckett also had a fantastic year and is the type of player that teams need to win in the playoffs (a power pitcher). because the sox are a perennial contender, adding beckett has a higher marginal value for them than he does to the marlins.

they made this deal thinking hanley was going to be blocked for a good 3-4 years, which should be factored in.

either way, i don't associate this deal with theo, it doesn't look like him even if he HAD been around when it was made.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess he didn't draft Papelbon or Pedroia; however he also made the correct decision to hold on to them when many teams wanted to make a trade for vets/whatever

[/ QUOTE ]

so trading hanley ramirez instead of pedroia was the right move

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we don't know that that was ever an option.

and regarding the Hanley deal, I'm not sure how that grades out. Florida got what they needed, a cheap awesome player (19 WARP in 2 years). We got what we needed, 2 awesome players (31 WARP in 2 years).


[/ QUOTE ]

And Red Sox Nation was bitching non-stop about how horrible their infield defense was / blah blah I love O-Cab / please keep him SS defense is amazing / wow wtf improve our defense and Hanley is pretty much the worst defensive SS in the game.

Hanley was more likely to flop and become nothing than become a star anyway. He was mostly tools, not production, at the time he was traded, exactly the type of player normally overvalued.

[NT!]

[ QUOTE ]

and regarding the Hanley deal, I'm not sure how that grades out. Florida got what they needed, a cheap awesome player (19 WARP in 2 years). We got what we needed, 2 awesome players (31 WARP in 2 years).

[/ QUOTE ]

right, but what florida is going to get out of hanley != what we would have gotten. they will never be able to resign him through his arb years, whereas we definitely would have extended him (and probably gotten a good deal judging by the beckett contract).

in terms of total WARP over the player's time in Boston i'm sure we lost out on this deal, but that's obv not the only standard. i think beckett's value in the playoffs is huge.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
well i didn't give theo credit for beckett, he wasn't really the GM at that point was he?

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a big grey area. various reports say he was still involved to various degrees.

you kind of forget he was "gone" for < 3 months

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The ss situation has been a comedy of errors. They had the best choice in '04 when they got Cabrera. Letting him go for Renterria (when the two had roughly equivalent stats) was flat out wrong. Then at least he makes up for it with A-Gon, who is only the best ss on earth. Then he overpays for Lugo who is fast, but inferior both offensively and defensively to all the previous guys at the position.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope that this is a joke, because otherwise LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain which part makes you LOL

1. That Cabrera is a better overall player than Renterria, Lugo or Gonzalez

2. The Renterria acquisition was a swap of players with roughly equivalent stats (at the time).

3. Alex Gonzalez is the best defensive ss in baseball.

4. Julio Lugo is not as good (speed not withstanding) than the other 3.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

Cabrera has been better than Renteria, but that was hard to predict. ditto for Lugo

Agon has been the worst of the 4.

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
Cabrera has been better than Renteria, but that was hard to predict.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense, I predicted it at the time.

[NT!]

alex gonzalez is definitely not the best defensive shortstop in baseball. FRAR and FRAR2 both have him as below-average, in fact.

how is it 'flat out wrong' to let a guy go for someone who has roughly equivalent numbers, even if that were true? and by the way, it isn't true - renteria had two years of 115+ OPS in the three years before the sox signed him. cabrera has a career OPS+ of 86, only one season of 100+, and is a year older.

in fact, renteria even hit better than cabrera IN 2005 WHILE HE WAS WITH THE RED SOX, when he had a lousy year, and he has been way better than cabrera since then.

if lugo had performed anywhere near projections, he would have had a much better year at the plate than gonzalez, and i expect he will bounce back (after hitting .320 or so after the AS break). the difference between the two at the plate more than makes up for gonzalez' defense, which, as i said, is not 'the best in baseball.' FRAR2 has him as about 5 runs better, in a full season, than Lugo.

lugo is certainly overpriced, but the fact that he had a lousy first half doesn't mean he should be run out of boston. of course, that's exactly what idiots like you do, which is part of why it's so hard to play here.

[NT!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cabrera has been better than Renteria, but that was hard to predict.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsense, I predicted it at the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

2007 OPS+

renteria: 125
o cab: 95

yeah, cabrera has kicked the [censored] out of edgar, no doubt.