Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is 50$ and you push the rest of your 50$. Your equity is 60%. What do you want, that he folds in 50% of the cases or that he calls everytimes?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Don - Neither.

You should want your opponent to always fold if your pot equity is only 60%. And the closer to always, the better.

Two thirds is the cut off.

If your pot equity is 67% or better, you should want your opponent to always call.

If your pot equity is 66% or worse, you should want your opponent to always fold.

But how often do you know what your pot equity (expressed as a percentage) is? Against decent opponents, you can rarely or never be certain of your pot equity, let alone your "fold equity."

Buzz

[JanelleBB7]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused by the responses in this thread that treat "fold equity" as some tool to be used during the play of a hand. I don't know, maybe it's getting confused with semi-bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I am getting confused.. I guess I need to read this and disgest it some more because ya'll are confusing me.

[JanelleBB7]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok this is the part that really confuses me. I thought fold equity is when you think you are in a 50/50 situation and possibly you may even be weaker - especially if you allow them to draw to the next card.

I guess I still don't completely get the difference between a semi-bluff and fold equity.

PS: Sorry I keep changing my avatar. I am done now! lol I swear to god! The other one was just really bad!

[alavet]

[ QUOTE ]

PS: Sorry I keep changing my avatar. I am done now! lol I swear to god! The other one was just really good!

[/ QUOTE ]

[Elrazor]

ok i think ive found a reasonable example of fold equity! the odds in this hand are about 55%/45% in favour of villan, so im certainly not raising like this because i want a call, its because i want him to fold his trip 3's as im representing a higher set - how come donkeys always get rewarded huh?? and to make it worse he made some smart ass remark after he won [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Cryptologic
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $41.35
UTG+1: $101
Hero: $100
Button: $143.82
SB: $28.80
BB: $24.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $4.5</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($19.5, 4 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $19.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $78</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises all-in $96.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $17.5</font>.
Uncalled bets: $1 returned to UTG+1.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($210.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $210.5)


River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($210.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $210.5)


Results:

UTG+1: shows [3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] (A Full House, Eights full of Threes)
Hero: shows [Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (A Straight, Queen high)
Mar271022 collected $207.50 from Main pot

[dshadow35]

Hi Janelle,

When we talk about equity in the general sense basically what it means is your share or % of you owning the pot. We are not talking about odds to make your hand, its just your ownership of the pot. We can use equity in the sense such as tournament equity for example when you play a SNG. If there are 10 players you would think everyones tournament equity is 10 %. However, this is not always the case since some players are worse or better than others so there equity is different.

Fold Equity is the same sort of concept. For example AK has fold equity in that if someone raises the pot and you push all in, they are most likely going to fold unless they have a monster. AK has Fold Equity, a greater % of ownership to the pot.

I hope this makes sense.

[Buzz]

Hi Janelle - It's interesting how the same words, here "fold equity" can mean different things to different individuals.

Dshadow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold Equity is the same sort of concept. For example AK has fold equity in that if someone raises the pot and you push all in, they are most likely going to fold unless they have a monster. AK has Fold Equity, a greater % of ownership to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]makes very good sense to me.

SavageMiser's[ QUOTE ]
Simply, if you bet, you now have another way to win the hand: your opponent folds. That's your fold equity. Figuring out that number is complicated, and, as indicated above, it's usually an educated guess.

[/ QUOTE ]makes very good sense to me.

Blah_blah's[ QUOTE ]
for example, an MTT example is when you have 25BB, and the button raises to 4xBB and you shove from the BB with AA, you have a lot of fold equity on your shove. this doesn't mean that shoving is right here, just that it's part of what you should be considering in your EV calculations.

[/ QUOTE ]makes very good sense.

Elrazor's[ QUOTE ]
i think the basic reason you want to start shoving with draws in PLO, is to show you don't always have top set when you shove. Consequently when you do have top set you are much more likely to get looked up by middle set, TTP, etc - hands you are owning and have virtually no chance against you

[/ QUOTE ]and[ QUOTE ]
you have an understanding of how your opponents view you - if you feel they might think you are a nut peddler they you have alot more f/e than a maniac pushing all kinds of rubbish

[/ QUOTE ]don't answer the question but add very good insight to one way to use "fold equity."

JPG has an excellent handle on it with:[ QUOTE ]
If opponent is a calling station, it is impossible to have any fold equity.

So based off your opponent, you make a guess as to if they are capable of folding. If they are, it makes shoving a draw (sometimes) better than calling with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

ParlaySlow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold equity means you can push some more marginal situations with certain hands because you can win the pot without getting to showdown

[/ QUOTE ]shows good understanding.

That's just my unofficial opinion. I don't know who started using "fold equity" as a term. Whoever did, it's a fairly recent concept and there is evidently not universal agreement as to the exact meaning of the term, at least so far as I know. (And that seems evident in this thread).

I couldn't resist poking fun at Pete in my first response and I didn't answer your question in my second. But I think somewhere in all the kind replies quoted above is the essence of what you need to know.

I don't mean to disparage other replies within the thread by not quoting them. I didn't start the thread, you did Janelle, but I also appreciate all the replies you got.

Buzz

[jpg7n16]

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok maybe I should explain that better. I mean I never care about my fold equity unless I probably have a worse hand, but his probably isn't that good.

If I think I have the best hand, I don't care about my fold equity - I want him to call.

Yes, you have equity for the percentage you draw to make a legitimate winning hand, and your fold equity is the portion of the pot you gain by making him fold a better one.

I just don't care about it while I'm ahead.

Also, you usually have no fold equity against the nuts, so I'm only considering it when I think he has a weak hand that might be better than mine. (El Razor gave a good example - where you're clear that 99 is probably not good, and by putting enough pressure on your opponent, he might fold a better hand) If I think he has a weak hand worse than mine, I want him to call and I don't care about my fold equity.

[Ribbo]

There is no such thing as fold equity in pot limit omaha. People just never fold. If you start fooling yourself into thinking you can raise someone off a better hand than yours, then you're just wrong. If people fold to your raise, then it's because they had absolutely nothing and you weren't bluffing, you were value betting.

My point is really this, do NOT ever factor in "fold equity" when deciding whether or not to bet your hand. It is almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

[JanelleBB7]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Janelle - It's interesting how the same words, here "fold equity" can mean different things to different individuals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, I see that everyone here has a slightly different definition. I can see it is more of a theoretical poker term.

Dshadow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold Equity is the same sort of concept. For example AK has fold equity in that if someone raises the pot and you push all in, they are most likely going to fold unless they have a monster. AK has Fold Equity, a greater % of ownership to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So here you are saying in Omaha Holdem terms like having AAxx as a starting hand would be like having AK.. it has a greater potential to win over the average hand at the table and therefore you can use your betting to prehaps scare off an individual holding weaker starting hands.

SavageMiser's[ QUOTE ]
Simply, if you bet, you now have another way to win the hand: your opponent folds. That's your fold equity. Figuring out that number is complicated, and, as indicated above, it's usually an educated guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds very much like semi-bluffing to me.. so I am not sure I see the difference there but it makes sense that it will work. I just don't understand how it is different from bluffing.


Blah_blah's[ QUOTE ]
for example, an MTT example is when you have 25BB, and the button raises to 4xBB and you shove from the BB with AA, you have a lot of fold equity on your shove. this doesn't mean that shoving is right here, just that it's part of what you should be considering in your EV calculations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how this is fold equity actually. Wouldn't you want the call? I thought fold equity you want them to fold?

Elrazor's[ QUOTE ]
i think the basic reason you want to start shoving with draws in PLO, is to show you don't always have top set when you shove. Consequently when you do have top set you are much more likely to get looked up by middle set, TTP, etc - hands you are owning and have virtually no chance against you

[/ QUOTE ]and[ QUOTE ]
you have an understanding of how your opponents view you - if you feel they might think you are a nut peddler they you have alot more f/e than a maniac pushing all kinds of rubbish

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what makes the most sense to me, but I can see how the line between a semi bluff and fold equity merge. To me this means you have a hand with potential but you are still a slight underdog and in order to get an opponent who is stronger yet not holding the nuts to fold you represent a strong hand.. and this is fold equity? That is what makes sense to me but then what do i know lol.

JPG has an excellent handle on it with:[ QUOTE ]
If opponent is a calling station, it is impossible to have any fold equity.

So based off your opponent, you make a guess as to if they are capable of folding. If they are, it makes shoving a draw (sometimes) better than calling with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah absolutely makes sense to me because I know some people will call till the bitter end, so you have to know the opponent and know how they will respond to your bets.

ParlaySlow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold equity means you can push some more marginal situations with certain hands because you can win the pot without getting to showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that and thats kind of what I was thinking... but I thought the hand I showed represented that??? Didn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
That's just my unofficial opinion. I don't know who started using "fold equity" as a term. Whoever did, it's a fairly recent concept and there is evidently not universal agreement as to the exact meaning of the term, at least so far as I know. (And that seems evident in this thread).

I couldn't resist poking fun at Pete in my first response and I didn't answer your question in my second. But I think somewhere in all the kind replies quoted above is the essence of what you need to know.

I don't mean to disparage other replies within the thread by not quoting them. I didn't start the thread, you did Janelle, but I also appreciate all the replies you got.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah a lot of really great replies everybody... I have to admit I am still really confused LOL but I think I got the essence of it and I guess the ways it can help you in the game, and I will try to slowly bring it into my game.

Thanks for the summary Buzz it really helped me sort through all of the responses which were so varied! I feel like this topic is like trying to figure out the Big Bang Theory LOL. But good stuff nonetheless! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]