General question regarding when a hand is over, plus backstory.

Daliman · #1 04-19-2007, 12:31 AM

Exactly when is a hand over? If there was a player who was good with sleight of hand who somehow made it appear that it was his turn to act, then when the other player was being pushed the pot and has mucked his cards to the dealer, if the other player then says, "Wait, I haven't acted yet", what would be the ruling? It seems like this is something that is somewhat exploitable if the rule is vague at all. It seems to me the rule would be something along the lines of if two people have acted after you and the "winner" mucks to the dealer and you haven't spoken up, you forfeit your hand. What's the real rule?

BACKSTORY:

I was playing in a medium-sized home tournament that has been going for a few years now. Anyways, blinds 75-150, a hand came up where a person limped in front of me, I limped,as did my friend immediately to my right, ( who was also dealing), as well as the button and SB. The BB then makes it 400 to go, and we all call. Flop comes KJ4 rainbow, All check to my friend, who bets 800 and has about 900 behind. My hand bears no resemblance to the flop at all and i know my friend will never have worse than a king here, so I am ready to fold, but I make sure not to give anything away befor eeveryone else has acted. Button and SB both fold, BB thinks for a bit and makes a motion with his cards that at the time looked like a muck, but I can't be sure now what the motion was specifically (I know that any forward motion release of the cards is a muck), the EP limper folds right away, as do I, and my friend mucks his cards and begins pulling the pot towards himself. About 3 seconds later, while he is still getting all the pot near him, the BB says "I raise" and everyone at the table looks surprised, and he still has his cards. He says he goes all in, and my friend says he already mucked. We look at each other and says "I thought he mucked" but obviously he didn't as he still had his hand, which was QQ.

At the time, it seemed like an angle, but since my friend and I are probably the 2 best players there, sitting right next to each other(random draw though) and I catch a bit of flack for being a "pro", I figured it might look like I'm just trying to job this guy out of the pot for my friend, (BB is a middle-aged loser who gives me most of the crap for being a pro). The problem then becomes if we call the "floor" that is the guy who owns the house, who when he's not sure, about a rule, defers to me. Again, I don't want to appear prejudicial, plus I don't know the exact rule, and I don't really remember exactly what the BB did to make the other 3 players behind him think he mucked. Anyways, at the time I thought i might be an angle, but I did'nt know that the guy was smart enough to pull it, but the more I think about it, the more I think he knew exactly what he was doing, as the first thing someone would usually say in a situation like this wouldn't be " I raise", but "Wait, I haven't acted yet" or something similar. Anyways, my friend just gave him the pot, a 2700 chip minimum swing, which could have made a big difference in the tourney. And I will be having a discussion with the BB the next time we play too.

juanez · #2 04-19-2007, 01:07 AM

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It seems to me the rule would be something along the lines of if two people have acted after you and the "winner" mucks to the dealer and you haven't spoken up, you forfeit your hand. What's the real rule?

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I rule the angle shooters hand is dead. Too much action and the pot is being pushed? Easy call IMHO. It's every players responsibility to protect their action.

pig4bill · #3 04-19-2007, 01:34 AM

The dealer should also being paying attention to mucks so he can keep all the cards together.

redfisher · #4 04-19-2007, 01:36 AM

I would think that the concept that the dealer thought you mucked, plus you have an underpair to the board in a multiway pot equals the dealer is right. QQ loses here in a home game.

This isn't really a B&M post IMO. You'll never see a casino dealer playing. Once your buddy awards the pot (to himself in this case), it's over if the winner's cards are mucked and irrecoverable.

Daliman · #5 04-19-2007, 01:40 AM

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I would think that the concept that the dealer thought you mucked, plus you have an underpair to the board in a multiway pot equals the dealer is right. QQ loses here in a home game.

This isn't really a B&M post IMO. You'll never see a casino dealer playing. Once your buddy awards the pot (to himself in this case), it's over if the winner's cards are mucked and irrecoverable.

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This was kinda my thinking. If the guy has KQ or so, ok, he has more of a claim, but being that my friend is only dealing to help out the guy who runs the game and is not being reimbursed in any way for the distraction it causes, yeah, I'm thinking more we shoulda spoke up.

Phntm · #6 04-19-2007, 10:46 AM

Action behind, its up to the angleshooter to protect his interest, funny how he doesn't say anything until everyone else mucks. I wonder what else he pulls?

AngusThermopyle · #7 04-19-2007, 10:55 AM

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my friend immediately to my right, ( who was also dealing), as well as the button and SB. The BB then makes it 400 to go, and we all call. Flop comes KJ4 rainbow, All check to my friend, who bets 800 and has about 900 behind. My hand bears no resemblance to the flop at all and i know my friend will never have worse than a king here, so I am ready to fold, but I make sure not to give anything away befor eeveryone else has acted.

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You guys play with some weird rules.

Daliman · #8 04-19-2007, 11:16 AM

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my friend immediately to my right, ( who was also dealing), as well as the button and SB. The BB then makes it 400 to go, and we all call. Flop comes KJ4 rainbow, All check to my friend, who bets 800 and has about 900 behind. My hand bears no resemblance to the flop at all and i know my friend will never have worse than a king here, so I am ready to fold, but I make sure not to give anything away befor eeveryone else has acted.

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You guys play with some weird rules.

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Sorry, obv he was to my left.

Al_Capone_Junior · #9 04-19-2007, 03:42 PM

Well this should not be a freeroll of sleight of hand plays as the dealer has announced how many are in, thus both the dealer and players should be watching to see that the proper number of players have acted. Also, the winner should not be releasing his cards till he gets the money. In addition, a player who fails to protect their own action may wind up with a dead hand (especially if they blatantly speak up way after the fact), which would have been appropriate here.

Al

AngusThermopyle · #10 04-19-2007, 03:55 PM

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BB thinks for a bit and makes a motion with his cards that at the time looked like a muck, but I can't be sure now what the motion was specifically (I know that any forward motion release of the cards is a muck), the EP limper folds right away, as do I, and my friend mucks his cards and begins pulling the pot towards himself.

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BB 'makes a motion', and the remaining 3 guys turbo-muck. And you can't describe the motion.
Muck. Muck. Muck. Reach for chips. Maybe the guy was a bit shocked by how you three acted and didn't find his voice for a whole 3 seconds. Maybe he felt you three were trying to kill his hand without a chance to act on it. The 3 seconds doesn't mean anything. If you three acted too fast behind his 'phantom muck', he is entitled to the pot.