Case in Point...

[vhawk01]

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I think the west is making a terrible mistake when it allows (even encourages) the belief that the extremist nutters and Islam are synomamous.


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QFT. Let's not act like these actions are representative of the majority of Islam.

I'm also fairly sure that mocking Saudi Arabians isn't going to change their mind on this issue. All that would seem to do is create outrage and anger toward us. However, I guess it's also possible that nothing will change minds.

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And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life.

[Taraz]

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And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life.

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But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. It seems like you are assuming that you can't change minds.

Actually, even if minds won't be changed and these people are going to continue to be ridiculous, mocking them could easily make our relations with them worse than it already is. I just don't see the positives and I see big negatives.

[vhawk01]

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And if THATS true then mocking them and getting them to show their true colors seems like a reasonable way to garner support from places it might actually exist. I have never wanted to name a bunch of sex toys Mohammed more in my entire life.

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But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. It seems like you are assuming that you can't change minds.

Actually, even if minds won't be changed and these people are going to continue to be ridiculous, mocking them could easily make our relations with them worse than it already is. I just don't see the positives and I see big negatives.

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You hit on a great point, actually, and its something I'm intellectually aware of but constantly forget because I give everyone too much credit. Let me try and give an example. If I made a statement like "God I hate all these stupid SMP posters who think they know everything and dont even listen to what I have to say" would you take offense? Why? I'm clearly not talking about you, I'm only talking about "that kind" of SMP poster. But most people WOULD take offense because...well I dont know why. When I rant on and on about the Christians that bother me, if you arent that kind of Christian why must you take offense? You arent all on the same team. You are all individuals. When people make fun of Minnesotans, I certainly dont take offense, unless they are talking about something that relates to me.

So, when we mock the actions and beliefs of CERTAIN Muslims, there is no reason whatsoever for the rest of the Muslims, the "good" Muslims that you are talking about here, to get offended at all. In fact the opposite should be true, they should be even more embarrassed by the "bad" Muslims and join in.

But that isnt what happens and I should know better.

[Taraz]

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You hit on a great point, actually, and its something I'm intellectually aware of but constantly forget because I give everyone too much credit. Let me try and give an example. If I made a statement like "God I hate all these stupid SMP posters who think they know everything and dont even listen to what I have to say" would you take offense? Why? I'm clearly not talking about you, I'm only talking about "that kind" of SMP poster. But most people WOULD take offense because...well I dont know why. When I rant on and on about the Christians that bother me, if you arent that kind of Christian why must you take offense? You arent all on the same team. You are all individuals. When people make fun of Minnesotans, I certainly dont take offense, unless they are talking about something that relates to me.

So, when we mock the actions and beliefs of CERTAIN Muslims, there is no reason whatsoever for the rest of the Muslims, the "good" Muslims that you are talking about here, to get offended at all. In fact the opposite should be true, they should be even more embarrassed by the "bad" Muslims and join in.

But that isnt what happens and I should know better.

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Yeah, that's basically what I'm getting at. Because of your position as an outsider and because of a lot of past history, bad relations, mistrust, etc, even if you specify that you are talking about "bad Muslims" many people on both sides will simply hear "Muslims". I mean, honestly how many people in the U.S. know the difference between the different Middle Eastern nations and the different forms of Islam? It's such a sensitive topic I just think it's worth it to be a little more careful.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">I mean, honestly how many people in the U.S. know the difference between the different Middle Eastern nations and the different forms of Islam? It's such a sensitive topic I just think it's worth it to be a little more careful. </font>

If this is true, then why aren't they some of the more vocal opponents of Islamic fanaticism?

If certain members of my family were also KKK members, and my family started getting a reputation for affiliation with the KKK, I'd be among the first to be ostracizing these rogue family members from the top of my lungs.

Chez says this is happening in the UK. We certainly don't see or hear of it happening here. Am I to believe this the result of a biased Western media?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">But if you mock and ridicule them and simply refer to them as "Muslims" you are alienating everyone who doesn't believe those things but considers themselves Muslim. </font>

But they DO believe those things! Even if they wouldn't be willing to flog and sentence a woman after being gang raped, they believe in oppressing women. Why is the degree of that oppression so important to you, instead of the oppression itself?