call 2 bets cold on the river?

B_ing · #1 08-16-2007, 02:21 PM

just arrived at table so no real reads on opponents.

MP1 is LA-A
MP3 is sLA-A

Party Poker 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from

FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, Hero ??.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

comments on any street please?

bravos1 · #2 08-16-2007, 02:23 PM

Lead the river... you would then have a better feel for where you are.

Sushiglutton · #3 08-16-2007, 02:24 PM

U must bet the river for value! As played I make a crying call because the villains are aggro.

CrMenace · #4 08-16-2007, 02:33 PM

I'm pretty sure I'm unhappy with all of your post-flop decisions. Do you want to walk us through what your thinking was on each?

Aaron W. · #5 08-16-2007, 02:50 PM

I wish you had bet the river. I also wish you had folded the flop.

As played, I guess I'd fold without a read. MP1's flop/turn line looks like a flush draw. MP2's river raise suggests he isn't afraid of a flush. They may both be aggro, but between the two of them, one of them is likely to hold it fairly often.

B_ing · #6 08-16-2007, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I'm unhappy with all of your post-flop decisions. Do you want to walk us through what your thinking was on each?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am hoping this means me.
FLOP: I counted 1 out for each overcard and 3 outs for the IStD (because I did not count the diamonds). I need 9 big bets to continue with 5 outs, and due to my opponents agressiveness I knew i could extract 2 extra big bets so I would have Implied odds to take one card off.
TURN: Because the King gave me the nuts and I expected MP3 to bet I decided to go for a checkraise.
RIVER: when the third flush card hit I wanted to try to go to showdown for 1 bet. when MP1 bets I thought his Line was consistent with a Flush draw, after MP3 raised I feared that I MP1 would reraise.

I agree with the first two posters: I should lead the river and as played it is a crying call. If I lead and the action gos raise and reraise would this be a fold?

B_ing · #7 08-16-2007, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wish you had bet the river. I also wish you had folded the flop.

As played, I guess I'd fold without a read. MP1's flop/turn line looks like a flush draw. MP2's river raise suggests he isn't afraid of a flush. They may both be aggro, but between the two of them, one of them is likely to hold it fairly often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please comment my out counting in the previos post? Discounting all diamond outs and still having proper odds You say I should fold just because there may be a FD?

As for folding the river I agree; I tend toward folding because one of the villans is likely to have a Flush now!

NOW it is bedtime in germany, I will come back tomorrow and continue.

CrMenace · #8 08-16-2007, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FLOP: I counted 1 out for each overcard and 3 outs for the IStD (because I did not count the diamonds). I need 9 big bets to continue with 5 outs, and due to my opponents agressiveness I knew i could extract 2 extra big bets so I would have Implied odds to take one card off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your first decision was to check rather than lead the flop. This one I am okay with -- there is a good chance that you are no longer best, your outs are only medium-good, and you

When it comes back to you for two bets, the pot is laying you 11:2 (5.5:1) immdiate. You are right that your implied odds might be better, but 2.5BB is pretty liberal in my opinion. In addition, there are two reasons that this is even less attractive -- first, MP1 is yet to act and may reraise, making your odds that much worse. Second, even if you hit your K on the turn villain may have a redraw to flush to beat you on the end.

[ QUOTE ]

TURN: Because the King gave me the nuts and I expected MP3 to bet I decided to go for a checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you checkraising to protect or to maximize value? Either way, this is wrong. c/r will not protect your hand against a flush draw as villain will be getting 10:2 (5:1) which is more than enough. For maximizing value, since the flop raiser is in the last seat, leading is the best plan, not check raising and facing MP1 with two bets cold. Hopefully the preflop aggressor will still raise and you'll trap the caller. There is also one more very important reason to bet the turn: the risk that it gets checked behind and you give a free card to a drawing hand... which in this case is a big risk because many flush draws will take the free card.

[ QUOTE ]

RIVER: when the third flush card hit I wanted to try to go to showdown for 1 bet. when MP1 bets I thought his Line was consistent with a Flush draw, after MP3 raised I feared that I MP1 would reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

As discussed by the others, betting is superior to checking.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the first two posters: I should lead the river and as played it is a crying call. If I lead and the action gos raise and reraise would this be a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be getting 19:2 aginst guys who have shown ridiculous aggression and look an awful lot like a flush. I think I lay the 3-banger down.

Aaron W. · #9 08-16-2007, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wish you had bet the river. I also wish you had folded the flop.

As played, I guess I'd fold without a read. MP1's flop/turn line looks like a flush draw. MP2's river raise suggests he isn't afraid of a flush. They may both be aggro, but between the two of them, one of them is likely to hold it fairly often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please comment my out counting in the previos post? Discounting all diamond outs and still having proper odds You say I should fold just because there may be a FD?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying that you might want to reconsider your situation on the flop.

You're facing 2 small bets in an 11.5 small bet pot against two aggressive players. Giving yourself the 5 outs, you need something like 8.5:1 to continue. That means that by the end of the hand, you need to have a pot size of about 15 small bets. So up to this point, the estimate that you probably need to make up 4 small bets = 2 big bets is correct.

However, when you consider the chances of getting 3-bet plus the flush redraw that makes you lose even if you hit your hand, you really need a larger pot to make up for those times you get caught. So you can't be so optimistic with the implied odds and hope that it will work itself out. I would probably look for a 20-ish small bet pot size on the end before making this call.

Point Blank · #10 08-16-2007, 07:59 PM

wow ... this hand is - like, uhhh I'm not too sure

so on the flop I check and call back two (if you are willing to call back two why don't you just bet??) - that you did check once it's two back to you it's time to fold getting about 5.5:1 and maybe worse if these guys keep raising) ...

since you played it like a wimp I would lead out the turn hoping one of these has a set or two pair (MP is calling one, and then two when you 3ball it, and maybe one more)

on the river ... why are you checking against a couple of retards [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]