commiting to a hand at the start of a tourney

Atg Dax · #1 07-19-2007, 10:22 AM

I was playing the 100$ buy in tourney with about 350 entries.
After about 10 min of play, all stacks still close to the starting point, I get QQ in middle position and raise X4 BB making it 120.
the button raises me to 420, and all fold to me.

I decided to call and bet the flop depending if no scare cards come out.

flop was JJ2 I raised his remaining chips ... (most of mine)

The question is, how do you feel about your hand after he raises you pre flop ?
calling his raise and then folding look very weak... he may have a lower pair...

the tourney just started, so is it rigth to commit to this pot and put your live on the line with QQ ?

Atg Dax

aaaaa · #2 07-19-2007, 10:52 AM

lol @ "life on the line"

What would raising with small pairs on BTN accomplish anyway? With small pairs, at most people raise or call raises and hope to flop a set.

He's got AA-KK, QQ, JJ, AK. A button raiser is looking for action and wants to build the pot. he's not wanting to push you out.

You can do 2 things:
1. Bet 1.5 the pot and see if he raises or calls.
2. However if the pot is > 1/4 your stack, you need to push.

Even if you take him to be tight, there is a 35% chance (12 pairs out a possible 34 cards) he has an AA or KK and calls, and if it is, it is.

McMelchior · #3 07-19-2007, 02:21 PM

Certain pieces of information vital to make any qualified reply is missing: Live or online, stack sizes, lengh of levels, reads???

After that note: It's a rather big re-raise ... looks scared if anything. Again depending on stack sizes ... most players tend not to make "shut-out" re-raises with AA or KK ...

I'll probably CR or CC the flop. If you have him beat he's not likely to call your flop bet, but if you give him a chance he might bluff. As the PF aggressor it would be very natural for him to bet if you check. No value in betting out ... except for perhaps a weak lead to induce a bluff.

ForRealDD · #4 07-19-2007, 02:53 PM

If you made the preflop call, you're assuming your hand is good, and this is a great flop for you given these assumptions. Leading for 1/2 the pot is only going to make him fold hands you're beating, and raise hands your losing to. In the latter, you've committed over half of your stack and aren't folding regardless of his action. C/shoving the flop is the play to maximize value.

BigAlK · #5 07-19-2007, 04:30 PM

Agree with the last 2 posters (check/raise or check/call the flop). However I'll often take McMelchior's alternative line of a weak lead.

As the other reply says when you made the pre-flop call you're making the assumption that your QQ is the best hand against opponent's re-raising range or is close enough to make continuing in the hand +EV given what is already in the pot. If you play around with poker stove you'll see that pre-flop QQ has 47.36% equity against a re-raising range of JJ+, AK (the range suggested by the first reply). Opening this range up at all (adding TT or AQs for example) only makes continuing in the hand more favorable. After the flop your equity goes down slightly (to 45.19%) due to the decreased chances of being up against JJ. However in most regards this flop is actually good for your hand. Having gotten this far you're actually committed to the hand given the flop. You might logically get away under pressure after an A or K high flop, but not now. Whatever line you think is most likely to get all the chips in now against this opponent is the one to take.

NIX · #6 07-19-2007, 04:50 PM

I don't see the point to shoving the flop. With the possible exception of TT, he's calling with hands that beat you and most likely folding hands that you beat like AK. I'd rather check and collect a bet from his entire range before pushing.

JFJB · #7 07-19-2007, 05:04 PM

Now some information is missing here about this situation. Namely, what were the starting stacks (I assume both you and vilain still have about a starting stack). Right now the blinds seems to be at 15-30 but how fast will they be moving up (I mean time per level and rate of increase of the blind). How many players at the table (10 handed is not 6 handed).

After you get re-raise, you have to re-evalutate your hand in the current situation. Now as others have said QQ is likely ahead of vilain range but not by that much.

If you are both (you and vilain) deep stacks you can always play your QQ for set value but we do not know how deep you are. If the tournament structure is slow, you have a stack of say 30BB and the play is 10 handed you could consider folding a hand like JJ here because you are likely to find a better situation than this one further ahead in the tournament. QQ is bordeline and folding it is on the nitty side of things when fairly short stacked but could be done.

Now, if you are relatively short stacked, say the blinds are 15-30 and you have about 350, the blinds double up every 20 minutes (this is live) and you are playing 8 handed - you have to play this hand here ; there is no question about it. With this flop you have to play for vilain (and your) stack.

ForRealDD · #8 07-19-2007, 05:24 PM

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If you are both (you and vilain) deep stacks you can always play your QQ for set value but we do not know how deep you are.

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Even starting with double stacks we still can't be playing this for set value.

JFJB · #9 07-20-2007, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
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If you are both (you and vilain) deep stacks you can always play your QQ for set value but we do not know how deep you are.

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Even starting with double stacks we still can't be playing this for set value.

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You are probably right but you never know, they may be sitting on 5000 starting stacks. I play a tournament live every month where buy in is 100$ and starting stack is 10000T$!!!