Professional No-Limit Holdem SSNL Discussion

[Sunny Mehta]

[ QUOTE ]

you're looking to adjust ure stack size or ure preflop lines in order to make 2 psbs and be all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

no. you're looking to simply be aware of the relationship between the pot size on the flop and the remaining stack sizes, and understand the implications of how different hands play out against different opponents based on that relationship, as well as the different commitment points, their range, your equity, their tendencies, etc - whatever specific "number" that may be for your particular situation.

and yes, many 2p2ers saw the manuscript during the writing process. I'm not gonna out anyone here or derail this thread, but you can feel free to look in the Acknowledgments section of the book.

[Sunny Mehta]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the lengthy response. There is a ton of good content in your book and I don't want it to seem like I am hating or bashing it. NL is tough for me to wrap my head around sometimes and it annoys me in that regard [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The sanity check aspect is what I like most about the book's advice. My comment about applicability to higher stakes is that I fear being grossly outplayed because I am very rarely going to commit, and people will know that. Although in that case, my adjustment would be to shift the target SPRs upwards because my range/equity are more favorable against theirs. (Right?)

[/ QUOTE ]

right, you just have to be really cognizant about tendencies. since tougher players are so much better at masking their own range and deciphering yours, postflop betting lines often become important indications of when or when not to commit. i.e. - if I just bet-bet on the flop and turn, committing might be suicide to an opponent's turn raise whereas going bet-check or check-bet might be much better, etc.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i've always thought of 50bbs as a redic awkward stack size to play. buy in for 20bbs, 80bbs, or 100bbs

[/ QUOTE ]

That's interesting to hear you say. It's obviously totally a consideration of certain game-specifics, but if I personally had to pinpoint "easy stack stack size targets" I probably would've said 40bb or 200bb for online games, and like 80bb or 300bb for live games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sunny - please elaborate. Is this a pot sizing issue, to evenly create pot sized bets in your stack or are you just joking?

[ryanj247]

guys pls read the book. seriously, the SPR concept has nothing to do with making pot-sized bets. the # of pot-sized bets remaining is just another way of thinking about the size of the pot relative to the stack sizes on the flop.

if you're only 2 pot-sized bets from being all-in, you better have a plan before you call (or make, for that matter) the 1st PSB... in fact, you better have a plan even if your opponent bets (or you plan to bet) only 2/3 or 1/2 the pot...

once you've manipulated the pot preflop to the size you'd like it to be, you obv will be making bets from that point forward at whatever size makes sense to extract the most $ from your opponent(s).

[r1base14]

In response to all the people who say that the book is not very helpful for playing top pair/overpair hands online where the standard stack is 100BB, I point you to the commitment threshold section. This may be something that was intuitive for many people, but to absoltely start planning your hand around commitment and to have a commitment plan when you have put 10% of the effective stack in the pot is very strong advice. It really gets you to to begin the REM process early in the hand and, even in the middling SPR ranges that give TP/overpair hands grief, makes those TP/overpair hands easier to play.

In response to those people that think this book advocates "nitty" play, I disagree wholeheartedly, as the book practically gives you a roadmap on how to push tightish players off top pair hands even after they've put a sizeable chunk of their stack into the pot. Additionally, there are numerous examples of "target practice" where the preflop lines that are taken are very creative, such as limp reraising with AQ against a LAG player so as to get to an SPR around 5-7 so you can commit on the flop when you spike top pair. I wouldn't call that nitty at all, in fact, it's pretty darn Laggy!

In closing, I am VERY much looking forward to using these concepts both online and in person (where the buyins are either 100 or 150 BBs, and sometimes uncapped. This book could not have come out at a better time, as I have a long weekend trip to foxwoods coming up in 2 weeks, and a long weekend trip to vegas coming up in 6 weeks. SPR ftw!
Ryan

[Sunny Mehta]

sure TT - and no I wasn't joking at all....

online games tend to feature much smaller preflop raises than live games, so we can use that as a starting point for evaluating different commitment points and SPRs for different hands....

40bb seems pretty good for playing standard one-pair poker in online games because 3-4bb pf raises lead to good commitment situations with top pair/overpair type hands. There's also some other stuff you can do with 40bb like semi-bluff hard with AK, etc. that you can't do with a bigger stack. Also, if people are opening light with their raises, your equity just by playing solid top pair hands is very good. - (see the "advanced" KQ example on page 263)

Since live games feature bigger pf raises, all of the above tends to ring true for the 80-ish bb size.

Deep stacks (200bb+) make every hand awesome to play if you're a good postflop player. You just have so many options when the preflop pot is small relative to the remaining stacks (i.e. - SPR is high) that hand reading, etc. make playing a lot more hands viable since hand values normalize to a degree. That's not to say one should start playing every piece of crap they're dealt - not at all. If you keep playing bad cards, particularly when you don't have a lot of steal equity, even with deep stacks you'll get bad results.

Those numbers were not at all hard and fast rules, just ballparks.



PS - ryanj247 and r1base14 thanks for the explanations re: SPR

[Moonshine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, when someone raises and a shortstacker pushes, a good deal of his profit comes from players calling sub-optimally against their range.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my experience (we'll just say it is sizeable), I would say this is generally not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. it's amazing how big of a misconception this is

[sethypooh21]

As a primarily limit player making the part-time transition, let me just say that I hope my head asplodes less after reading the book than it does after reading this thread.

I was already aware that TPGK type hands are/were awkward 100bb deep, now I'm just going to able to quantify the awkwardness?

I dunno, I feel like too often I'm turning TPTK into a bluff/semi-bluff and rarely getting value, and what you are telling me about stealing equity of drawing hands does little to change that suspicion.

Still very much looking forward to it.

[Bang584]

IMO, an easy way to manipulate SPR with your good hands is to open with a wider range. For instance, let's say you wanted to get 10% of your stack in preflop(100bb stacks) with AA. A 10bb raise might not get called too often. So you decide to raise with suited connectors from 98-54(20 hands). With these hands, you'd prefer a smaller pot, so making the minimum raise preflop would be optimal(if you had to raise). Also, you don't plan on going broke on the flop with one pair too often with these drawing hands. So you can adjust your raise size accordingly.

[(20*2bb) + (6*10bb)] / 26 = 3.85bb

Now a 4xbb raise prices out your opponents who are hoping to catch a lucky flop. While a speculative hand may have good implied odds against AA alone, it is lacking the proper odds against your overall range.

I could be way off here, but seems to work for me. I don't mind getting it in postflop with AA, even with an SPR of say 11.5, because I know I've priced my opponents out preflop with my raising range.

EDIT: Of course, there are more factors to consider than I'd care to list. For instance, your opponents could possibly profit by 'floating' preflop, with the combined chances of stacking you with a good flop and stealing with a bad flop making their call +EV.

[derosnec]

i don't have this book yet, but for some reason i am inspired to pick a few tables with tags and do some really weird things preflop like raising 8xbb one hand, minraising another, open limping another, min-3betting, etc. no one will have any clue what i'm doing, including myself (well for some hands i have a plan). it's going to be like a circus show and hopefully i will have tilted everyone sitting with me, though i'll probably just end up tilting myself. trip report coming soon.